From cis-pervc-bounces@listserver.njit.edu Mon Mar 1 08:23:27 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 00:38:45 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23174 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 00:38:45 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23170 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 00:38:44 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 00:38:44 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 84CDF19DE9; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 85A7C19BBD; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0BDDE19BD0; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-shield1.njit.edu (mail-shield1.njit.edu [128.235.251.171]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CC38A19B99 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail-shield1.njit.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i1TFbes22476 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from nodnsquery(128.235.251.32) by mail-shield1.njit.edu via csmap (V4.1) id srcAAA9_aq5R; Sun, 29 Feb 04 10:37:39 -0500 Received: from listserver.njit.edu (listserver.njit.edu [128.235.251.42]) by mail-gw4.njit.edu (8.12.10/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i1TFbdpN008157 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserver.njit.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by listserver.njit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9321C4A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:38 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: cis-pervc-bounces@listserver.njit.edu To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: cis-pervc@listserver.njit.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 X-List-Administrivia: yes Subject: [9fans] Your message to Cis-pervc awaits moderator approval Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:37 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Your mail to 'Cis-pervc' with the subject Jessica Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL: http://listserver.njit.edu/mailman/confirm/cis-pervc/38e72cfbb650d8660c89b4d73e47d92d3ce89876 From 9nut@9netics.com Mon Mar 1 08:23:28 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 01:24:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26847 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 01:24:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26843 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 01:24:40 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 01:24:40 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CF06D19DFB; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A285619DC9; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:24:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4512E19DDB; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.9netics.com (unknown [64.91.109.37]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7C8B419DC9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:23:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3d5c5b0a3fb8d0c9fb504edc9ced67d7@9netics.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] install without rio From: 9nut@9netics.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:23:34 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > One can now change the wiki using the acme interface. The hope is that > at people screwing with the wiki will at least have to be using our > protocols. If you can't dissuade them, enlighten them... I like it! From swasey@cs.cmu.edu Mon Mar 1 08:23:28 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 01:26:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26919 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 01:26:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26909 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 01:26:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 01:26:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7D95D19DE8; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A65D119B81; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:26:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4A80119DAD; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:25:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 372EC19BD5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from patton.home (c-24-3-55-90.client.comcast.net[24.3.55.90]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <200402291625530150049bqne>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:25:53 +0000 Message-ID: <8d3aa4d58bde7cdc6b4d39c21684bff4@cs.cmu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: David Swasey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] dvips Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:25:51 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: The first time dvips sees a "new" font, it generates some file it needs and saves the generated file for subsequent runs. This memoization did not work because the program mktexupd was failing to record that the generated file exists. The patch below fixes mktexupd and significantly speeds up dvips. (The old code either confused APE's sh or was broken. Sed saw the filename '"/sys/lib/texmf/ls-R"' rather than '/sys/lib/texmf/ls-R'.) -dave diff /n/dump/2004/0229/sys/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd /sys/lib/texmf/web2c/mktexupd 41,42c41,43 < test "x`sed 1q \"$db_file\"`" = "x$ls_R_magic" \ < || test "x`sed 1q \"$db_file\"`" = "x$old_ls_R_magic" \ --- > found_magic=`sed 1q "$db_file"` > test "x$found_magic" = "x$ls_R_magic" \ > || test "x$found_magic" = "x$old_ls_R_magic" \ From lucio@proxima.alt.za Mon Mar 1 08:23:28 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 02:44:45 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30005 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 02:44:45 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30001 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 02:44:45 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 02:44:45 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D3F8B19E0B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AACBE19E09; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:44:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6083B19D54; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 29F0319D54 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i1THhd0V003472 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:39 +0200 (SAST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id i1THhcaN003471 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:39 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us Organization: Proxima Research & Development Subject: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:38 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: It seems to me that imap4d and Outlook disagree on the interpretation of dates. As displayed, the year and day are interchanged. The fact that changing the date representation in the regional settings (NT-4, Settings/Regional Settings/Date) causes Outlook to crash rather dramatically (maybe it can't cope with the representation of an inverted date) does nothing to reassure me that the problem is in imap4d. But it doesn't hurt to ask. I have very little intention of reading the IMAP RFCs, if you'll forgive me. ++L PS: If it helps, I _can_ try Mozilla's mailer as comparison, but not immediately. From davel@anvil.com Mon Mar 1 08:23:29 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 02:57:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30487 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 02:57:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30483 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 02:57:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 02:57:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 12A8619E06; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7A2A419E08; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:57:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 75BA519D54; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from anvil.com (wonderwall.anvil.co.uk [194.193.52.253]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9179B19ADB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by anvil.com (Postfix, from userid 27) id 49FBA43B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:55:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from anvil.co.uk (mother.anvil.co.uk [192.168.4.4]) by anvil.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67431438; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:55:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (IDENT:root@rothko [192.168.4.66]) by anvil.co.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11064; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:56:26 GMT Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook From: Dave Lukes To: Lucio De Re Cc: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> References: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1078077689.18041.30.camel@rea> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 (1.4.5-1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:01:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: L, If you can wait until tomorrow morning, I can at least save you wasting a barf-bag: I've been Poking at Post-offices with Python for the previous few weeks, so it won't take me long to find the answer. IIRC, it's RFC822-like, so it'll have all sorts of evil muck like timezone offsets in it. Dave. On Sun, 2004-02-29 at 17:43, Lucio De Re wrote: > It seems to me that imap4d and Outlook disagree on the interpretation > of dates. As displayed, the year and day are interchanged. > > The fact that changing the date representation in the regional > settings (NT-4, Settings/Regional Settings/Date) causes Outlook to > crash rather dramatically (maybe it can't cope with the representation > of an inverted date) does nothing to reassure me that the problem > is in imap4d. > > But it doesn't hurt to ask. I have very little intention of reading > the IMAP RFCs, if you'll forgive me. > > ++L > > PS: If it helps, I _can_ try Mozilla's mailer as comparison, but > not immediately. From matthias@mteege.de Mon Mar 1 08:23:29 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 03:01:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30614 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 03:01:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30609 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 03:01:41 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 03:01:41 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8731B19B81; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7E7719E09; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:01:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D36D319D54; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from one.mteege.de (one.mteege.de [81.2.131.61]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 930F019ADB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 79240 invoked by uid 66); 29 Feb 2004 18:00:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 10732 invoked from network); 29 Feb 2004 17:56:27 -0000 Received: from gic.mteege.de (HELO mteege.de) (192.168.153.10) by 0 with SMTP; 29 Feb 2004 17:56:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 46797 invoked from network); 29 Feb 2004 17:56:26 -0000 Received: from loco.mteege.de (HELO loco) (192.168.153.22) by 0 with SMTP; 29 Feb 2004 17:56:26 -0000 Message-ID: From: Matthias Teege To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] start network file service on boot Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:55:40 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Moin, I want to serve a directory tree from an externel (FreeBSD) server which runs u9fs via httpd(8). I can start the file service with srv -m tcp!ipaddr name /n/name Is it possible to run this command at boottime on the CPU server? What ist the best place for that? Matthias From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Mar 1 08:23:29 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 03:08:42 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30934 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 03:08:42 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30930 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 03:08:41 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 03:08:41 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 937F419E19; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C355219E13; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:08:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 555A619E14; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.plan9.ucalgary.ca (unknown [136.159.220.110]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BF97319D54 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:07:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9485e6fb1d46820a16d0988621e941a8@plan9.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] start network file service on boot From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:11:12 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Moin, > > I want to serve a directory tree from an externel (FreeBSD) server which > runs u9fs via httpd(8). I can start the file service with > > srv -m tcp!ipaddr name /n/name > > Is it possible to run this command at boottime on the CPU server? What > ist the best place for that? > > Matthias /rc/bin/cpurc :) From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 08:23:29 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 04:15:39 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1172 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 04:15:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1168 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 04:15:39 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 04:15:39 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E29BF19D82; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1375E19BFF; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:15:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3405119DC8; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 27B9C19B8F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i1TJA6ki053696 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:10:06 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i1TJA6UC053695 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:10:06 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200402291910.i1TJA6UC053695@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Subject: [9fans] drawterm+sam Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:10:06 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: drawterm built from current sources, FreeBSD; sam puts blanks instead of glyphs (that is, no text, just spaces). Other programs (acme) work as expected. Where to look? From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Mar 1 08:23:29 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 04:28:59 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1995 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 04:28:58 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1985 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 04:28:58 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 04:28:58 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3E82F19AAA; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9859E19E22; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:28:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4CDD219E2A; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.plan9.ucalgary.ca (unknown [136.159.220.110]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DA5A719AA4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:26:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7984b3be2b7f45e5110d2998a117eb57@plan9.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] drawterm+sam From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: <200402291910.i1TJA6UC053695@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:31:00 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > drawterm built from current sources, FreeBSD; sam puts blanks instead of glyphs > (that is, no text, just spaces). Other programs (acme) work as expected. Where > to look? it's a race in drawterm resulting it no text being shown on terminals. you can either look back through the archives for others' suggestions or just resize the window until the text appears. starting acme does it for me. you won't get that with vnc, and if you aren't using acme then you won't miss the cursor repositioning that vnc doesn't implement. From jbarham@jbarham.com Mon Mar 1 08:23:30 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 05:06:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3695 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 05:06:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3691 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 05:06:42 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 05:06:42 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4045019E37; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D02A19A05; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:06:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BF35819E2B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8946019A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTV00HFJ3K2Q4@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:00:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTV00K2M3K2KI@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:00:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from hpn5415 (h24-87-250-11.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.250.11]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0HTV00F4U3K2S1@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:00:02 -0700 (MST) From: "John E. Barham" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:59:48 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I'm working w/ a system that stores 10's of thousands of high-definition images per project (think movies). Storing all of the files on a single file server is not feasible (even w/ 3 x 1.8 TB arrays per Linux file server) and even if it were possible would be sub-optimal from a network standpoint since literally hundreds of image processing nodes could be hitting the server simultaneously. Keeping track of where the files for a particular project are physically stored is a nuisance and it can be time-consuming to track down the location of a particular file, esp. for some of the less technically minded users (e.g., artists). Our solution is to develop a virtual mapping service that maps logical URLs (e.g., /project/shot/frame010000.tiff) to physical location (e.g., /server10/home/user/project/shot/frame010000.tiff), but this requires adding support to client applications to work properly. Cumbersome but still a lot cheaper than buying high-end dedicated storage solutions, and even then we'd run out of space. (We considered using HTTP redirection but couldn't see how to make this work efficiently for PUT operations.) It occurred to me that Plan 9 has already solved this problem by being able to (securely) mount remote filesystems and do a union on directories. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC creating a file in a unioned folder would add the file to the original folder location.) Even something as seemingly simple as collecting stats on drive usage per server is a pain on Linux. For the moment we're running du over ssh using an expect style module in Python. Again, Plan 9 would make that trivial either by mounting the remote file server directly, or possibly running the script after doing a cpu connection. Anyway, it's a truism that the more powerful hardware gets (in both CPU power and storage capacity) the more ways we find to use it to capacity, so mechanisms that Plan 9 provides to present a seamless view of distributed resources are becoming more necessary, not less. John P.S. Forgive me if I'm hazy on the details of the Plan 9 commands, but the website appears to be down at the moment... From jas@corpus-callosum.com Mon Mar 1 08:23:30 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 05:27:40 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4660 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 05:27:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4656 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 05:27:39 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 05:27:39 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DCED819E42; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7C9D519C05; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:27:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A089B19E23; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from gate.corpus-callosum.com (ip-216-36-98-130.dsl.chi.megapath.net [216.36.98.130]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 72EC619B04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (codex [10.0.1.8]) by gate.corpus-callosum.com (8.12.6/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i1TKQcfK078802 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:26:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jas@corpus-callosum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> References: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <90923238-6AF5-11D8-829B-003065E1714E@corpus-callosum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeff Sickel Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:26:33 -0600 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Feb 29, 2004, at 1:59 PM, John E. Barham wrote: ... > (securely) mount remote filesystems and do a union on directories. > (Correct > me if I'm wrong, but IIRC creating a file in a unioned folder would > add the > file to the original folder location.) > ... When you can look at the web pages again: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/bind If for some reason you can't go with a Plan 9 solution, you might want to check out The Handle System (http://www.handle.net/). Come to think of it, adding hdl support to Plan 9 might be a nice project on it's own. jas From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Mar 1 08:23:30 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 05:35:48 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4957 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 05:35:47 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4952 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 05:35:47 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 05:35:47 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E51BF19E23; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 751C219A23; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A4E8A19E2A; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.plan9.ucalgary.ca (unknown [136.159.220.110]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF57419C05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:34:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5eb036eb621fc8ca01d2b10665ad4e7d@plan9.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:38:51 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: It's not that you can't do it in Lunix -- look at Globus' Replica Location Service or MDS (Metasomething Discovery Service, they keep changing the name) for just a few of the options for handling replication, there are others specifically tailored to clusters too. They are all crufty, don't play well with each other, require their own clients and a pain in the proverbial to administer, but that's a consequence of the multiple layers of abstraction they're built upon to avoid admitting that UNIX simply lacks a decent mechanism for importing remote resources. Binding remote exports in a union directory is so trivial in Plan 9 that it's really a non-issue (you'll spend much more time tracking which files are stored where, especially if they move). The show stoppers are the clients -- what will you be using on the client side? Will you require users to be running Plan 9 to access the service, or are you prepared to spend some time developing a way to bring it to their environment (by, say, implementing a 9p client suitable for the task, something like v9fs)... Plan 9 lets you do something elegantly, bringing the result to the outside world may be a bit trickier :) my $0.02: andrey From rsc@swtch.com Mon Mar 1 08:23:31 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 08:20:47 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12319 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 08:20:46 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12315 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 08:20:46 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 08:20:46 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8E18E19E31; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 14A9A19DE3; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:20:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1F40219DEB; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from t40.swtch.com (node-40245942.bos.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.89.66]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1AD8419DCC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=t40.swtch.com) by t40.swtch.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AxaDZ-000EHO-RD for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:29 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <54892.1078096767.1@t40.swtch.com> Message-Id: Subject: [9fans] os x box with compilers, x11 libraries, and ssh login? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I'd like to try to get my acme port running on OS X, but I need access to an OS X box with compilers and X11 libraries. If anyone has such a box attached to the internet and is willing to give me an account for using ssh for such purposes, please email me. Thanks. Russ From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:07:46 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14506 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:07:46 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14502 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:07:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:07:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8F45719E50; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 15A7819E3A; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:26 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9FB8E19DE3; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5120719E05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <334589-12153>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:45 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c3ff18$959df180$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <9d7db04bb484d8fc08e87e8d50dd7206@9srv.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] pathetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:11:47 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > my bet is about 3.5 weeks before election day. i'm about to swaps hats [baseball caps] to ENIGMA. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:08:08 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14533 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:08:08 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14529 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:08:08 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:08:08 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id F1D6219E64; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8589019E21; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:56 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2D8BD19E05; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CE1F919E21 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <334536-12144>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:45 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c3ff18$950fe250$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:10:29 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: i think it was rob, but i'm not sure, who said: linear is programming is hard enough, but concurrent programming is beyond the 'average' programmer. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:08:34 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14580 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:08:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14575 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:08:34 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:08:34 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B4C8219E7D; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AF9F119E21; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:08:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 379E319E3B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7E3BA19A6D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <334336-12153>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:35 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c3ff18$8f705eb0$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <0d7bea785d989cd275b7ca67cfa6cdeb@yourdomain.dom> <006201c3fdde$a6339030$8201a8c0@cc77109e> Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:59:39 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06 autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > i had trouble believing that the screeds of banter were from linus. > maybe he has a ghost writer. this is the bigest kernel (sic) in the southern hemisphere. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:09:34 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14661 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:09:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14657 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:09:33 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:09:33 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B18B819E7E; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C0EE419DE0; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:09:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6215319E64; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E939219E5E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <334928-12147>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01c3ff18$97aa1530$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>, References: <0374a3982e4b359e09ce2a3be9192f06@yourdomain.dom> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:17:19 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > Wrong. You have zero basis for your assertion, and it's simply bogus. the 'everything is a file' (invented 30? years ago) is a plan. unlike that hideous lunix /proc [yeah, we had that 1984]. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:10:03 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14701 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:10:03 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14697 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:10:03 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:10:03 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5B47B19DE0; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BBA6319E6B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:09:54 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 682FD19E5E; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 06D0419E5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <334870-12150>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:06:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c3ff18$96f14c80$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:14:22 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > I believe the shortsightedness of not imposing a strict type created > too many possibilities. This creates a bigger problem when dealing > with libraries imported into a system with no defined interface, and > you end up with the desire for one. limbo does this right. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:19:43 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 15454 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:19:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15450 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:19:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:19:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 58C3819E43; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 91BDE19E72; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:19:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 15E5419E59; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams003.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n03.valueweb.net [216.219.253.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A81C419E43 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <328514-12537>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: <00b701c3ff1a$0ecb8f80$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <200402290935.i1T9ZsbV013642@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] re: spam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:16:26 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > From: "Laura Creighton" hey pal, my 'non-use' is up soon ... From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:34 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:29:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16062 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:29:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16058 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:29:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:29:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DDBE219B59; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 746A319BD1; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:29:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D96D019E6F; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams013.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n13.valueweb.net [216.219.253.195]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24B0B19E5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <479550-21553>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:27:12 -0500 Message-ID: <014201c3ff1b$7066c8d0$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:26:18 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > It seems to me that imap4d and Outlook disagree on the interpretation > of dates. As displayed, the year and day are interchanged. ol' 'gaijin' crispin screwed up, big time. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:35 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:32:43 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16316 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:32:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16312 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:32:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:32:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E388C19E81; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36A3C19E3B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:32:26 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8DB8519E54; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams003.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n03.valueweb.net [216.219.253.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0BC0A19B0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:31:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <329386-12538>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:30:13 -0500 Message-ID: <015e01c3ff1b$dc67dce0$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <1078077689.18041.30.camel@rea> Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:29:20 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > IIRC, it's RFC822-like, so it'll have all sorts of evil muck > like timezone offsets in it. walk in the park. mace knows how to do it. From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 10:10:35 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 09:35:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16491 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 09:35:40 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16487 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 09:35:40 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 09:35:40 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7D47F19E5F; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2F0D519E7C; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:35:24 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 492DF19E5F; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams005.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n05.valueweb.net [216.219.253.151]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A4D2B19B0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([135.196.95.21]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <3696071-22734>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:33:42 -0500 Message-ID: <019901c3ff1c$595c8a70$26fea8c0@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <5eb036eb621fc8ca01d2b10665ad4e7d@plan9.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 00:32:49 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > It's not that you can't do it in Lunix -- look at Globus' Replica > Location Service or MDS (Metasomething Discovery Service, they keep > changing the name) ... Meta Drongo Service From jhorey@cs.unm.edu Mon Mar 1 14:02:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 11:57:36 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21629 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 10:57:35 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21625 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 10:57:35 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 10:57:35 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6706E19BDE; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1C25019BDE; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:57:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 79CF519D4F; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (bgp01387375bgs.brodwy01.nm.comcast.net [68.35.130.208]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D72CE19BD1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A4739206066; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:56:35 -0700 (MST) From: James Horey To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> In-Reply-To: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402291856.34935.jhorey@cs.unm.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: horeyjl@mercury.hendrix.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:56:34 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** > occurred to me that Plan 9 has already solved this problem by being able to > (securely) mount remote filesystems and do a union on directories. > (Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC creating a file in a unioned folder > would add the file to the original folder location.) If I remember my reading of the documentation, I thought that when adding a file to a unioned directory, that file is placed within the first directory that was unioned and is writable. Otherwise the write fails completely. Am I wrong on this or not up to date? If I am wrong, is it now possible to select which directory you want to place your file into? -James Horey From presotto@closedmind.org Mon Mar 1 14:02:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 12:01:01 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21753 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 11:01:00 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21749 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 11:00:59 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 11:00:59 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9D6B119DED; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6933619DE8; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:00:36 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6E1FA19DD9; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E7A5519BD1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <27b7658f4e965a8acfe73430e3f4d269@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook In-Reply-To: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-lqakpytdmlhprlmzdekqcornoo" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:00:18 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-lqakpytdmlhprlmzdekqcornoo Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use outlook with our imap4d all the time and haven't noticed such a swap. Perhaps its because both are using US style dates? --upas-lqakpytdmlhprlmzdekqcornoo Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Sun Feb 29 12:44:38 EST 2004 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Sun Feb 29 12:44:35 EST 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7998E19E10; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 39DFE19E04; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:44:22 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6083B19D54; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 29F0319D54 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i1THhd0V003472 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:39 +0200 (SAST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id i1THhcaN003471 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:39 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us Organization: Proxima Research & Development Subject: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:38 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: It seems to me that imap4d and Outlook disagree on the interpretation of dates. As displayed, the year and day are interchanged. The fact that changing the date representation in the regional settings (NT-4, Settings/Regional Settings/Date) causes Outlook to crash rather dramatically (maybe it can't cope with the representation of an inverted date) does nothing to reassure me that the problem is in imap4d. But it doesn't hurt to ask. I have very little intention of reading the IMAP RFCs, if you'll forgive me. ++L PS: If it helps, I _can_ try Mozilla's mailer as comparison, but not immediately. --upas-lqakpytdmlhprlmzdekqcornoo-- From geoff@collyer.net Mon Mar 1 14:02:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 12:05:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21984 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 11:05:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21980 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 11:05:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 11:05:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 23BA819E3F; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4B31619E06; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:05:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B065819DF6; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (venti.collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8693019DD9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:04:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <94ee7f2940524eb398c1e19ff3f9526f@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: <200402291856.34935.jhorey@cs.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:04:34 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: files are created in the first directory in the union that's creatable (i.e. was bound with -c). if that attempt fails, the create fails. From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Mar 1 14:02:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 12:41:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 28688 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 12:41:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28684 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 12:41:33 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 12:41:33 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1F65219C61; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8039819E23; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 84B1A19E23; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 213F719C61 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i213eVeF028448 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:40:31 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i213eVYj012314 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:40:31 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i213eVfQ009713 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:40:31 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ndb/cs pcauth pcf In-Reply-To: <200402282259.i1SMxMMT048349@adat.davidashen.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:40:30 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Here's what I finally did for setting sysname on my 9grid cluster, with 9 nodes and a frontend all of which run cpurc. sysname=`{ndb/query ether `{cat /net/ether0/addr} sys} I forget but probably stole this one from Andrey. ron From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Mar 1 14:02:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 13:17:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31216 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 13:17:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31212 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 13:17:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 13:17:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CD24819DE8; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 66DF219B4B; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7C3A719C62; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3279319A1F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i214GreF029632 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:16:53 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i214GqYj015483 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:16:52 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i214GqfQ010678 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:16:52 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Subject: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:16:52 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I think I sent this before, but it's so nice I am sending it again. Scenario: an EPIA with linuxbios and plan 9 in flash. cpu is named cpu50. You want to muck with the kernel and debug it. Easy. . bind_test_namespace cd /sys/src/9/pc mk 'CONF=whatever' cpu -h cpu50 echo 'reboot /path/to/9whatever' > /dev/reboot boom. 9 boots 9. takes 5 seconds. If it blows up, cpu is back in 10 seconds. Add this to the 20 seconds build time (MAX!) for plan 9, and kernel hackery is now as easy as normal program hackery -- almost. Very very nice. Hats off to /dev/reboot. ron From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 1 14:02:10 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 13:37:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 376 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 13:37:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 371 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 13:37:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 13:37:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A422019E47; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 77DD419D55; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:37:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3EAC919D55; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 149A919B4B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:36:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7cc63f70971c9a63a8d3810b269c7a25@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ghostscript From: Kenji Okamoto In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ljjgnimzgwskmfttfskwrrrphu" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:36:49 +0900 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ljjgnimzgwskmfttfskwrrrphu Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AFPL Ghostscript-8.13 can be find on our web site: http://basalt.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp/plan9/gs-8.13.tgz http://basalt.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp/plan9/gs-data.tgz. Why they were removed from sources? Because none is maintaining it anymore. As you know Russ has been doing it, but he is a graduate student at MIT which means he must be very busy for his own Ph.D thema etc. Furthermore, maintaining Ghostscript is not any creative work which is neccessary to those students. We need Ghostscript for every day use of Plan 9, and that's all. Ghostscript is not in the main stream of Plan 9 design way, it uses UTF-8, but Ghostscript(8.x) uses CID-keyd character etc. To maintain Ghostscript is easy enough even for like me, which don't need Russ, Dave, Jim, Sape, and of course Rob. I think that's the reason. Kenji --upas-ljjgnimzgwskmfttfskwrrrphu Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp ([157.16.103.2]) by diabase; Sun Feb 29 01:18:18 JST 2004 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.9.3p2+/3.7W-03092514) with ESMTP id BAA08410 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:15:44 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E102419A06; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E86221999B; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:15:25 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0B2D519CC6; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.73]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 93AB119A06 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.det.ameritech.net (adsl-68-21-43-189.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net [68.21.43.189]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1SGEL3l077242 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:14:22 -0500 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: dbailey27@ameritech.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] ghostscript Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:08:58 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,NO_REAL_NAME, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Morning, all Does anyone know what happened to the 8.x ghostscript stuff on the labs fs? I'm looking to upgrade so I can view files from unicode.org. The ghostscript/. directory on the Labs 9fs is empty, and there is no gs package in contrib or extra. Don (north_) --upas-ljjgnimzgwskmfttfskwrrrphu-- From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 1 14:02:10 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 13:41:21 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 590 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 13:41:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 586 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 13:41:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 13:41:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5863019E3C; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3876819D55; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D846419D55; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4BDBA19CAC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:40:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9d0e94efc0d0ebb3c2f2031cd8be4ac6@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Kenji Okamoto In-Reply-To: <000c01c3ff18$96f14c80$26fea8c0@SOMA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:40:51 +0900 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: By the way, it took half a day for me to read plenty of mails during these three days while I was knocked down by flu... Yeah, it was interesting to read those. Kenji From lucio@proxima.alt.za Mon Mar 1 14:02:10 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 13:44:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 828 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 13:44:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 824 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 13:44:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 13:44:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A322219E11; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 573E319CA3; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:44:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D544319CAC; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B4A3B19B4B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i214h90V007246 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:43:10 +0200 (SAST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id i214h8Iq007245 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:43:08 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook Message-ID: <20040301064307.B29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <27b7658f4e965a8acfe73430e3f4d269@plan9.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <27b7658f4e965a8acfe73430e3f4d269@plan9.bell-labs.com>; from David Presotto on Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 09:00:18PM -0500 Organization: Proxima Research & Development Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:43:08 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 09:00:18PM -0500, David Presotto wrote: > > I use outlook with our imap4d all the time and haven't noticed such > a swap. Perhaps its because both are using US style dates? More likely because of the locality, South Africa. I only picked it up because I could not get the messages in a sensible date sequence. As I mentioned, if I adjust the date display settings, I crash Outlook, presumably because of some invalid date value, so it's hard to tell. It seemed such an obvious fault, I thought someone else would have picked on it. I'll try and find some time to dig deeper. ++L From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 1 18:28:41 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 16:32:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 13252 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 16:32:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13248 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 16:32:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 16:32:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 072E619E37; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C876319BB7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:32:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A67E219BB7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4313819B1D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:31:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8f1cfb1c472682d588bb1dba6f1379dd@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ghostscript From: Kenji Okamoto In-Reply-To: <7cc63f70971c9a63a8d3810b269c7a25@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:32:45 +0900 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > To maintain Ghostscript is easy enough even > for like me, which don't need Russ, Dave, Jim, Sape, and of course Rob. I meant they should use their power for more basic ones of Plan 9. Kenji From forsyth@terzarima.net Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:20:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16809 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:20:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16804 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:20:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:20:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2A85719E48; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8B9C919CA6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EBCF419E3E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B73E19E36 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:19:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <000901c3ff18$950fe250$26fea8c0@SOMA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:19:16 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** >>i think it was rob, but i'm not sure, who said: > linear is programming is hard enough, but > concurrent programming is beyond the > 'average' programmer. actually, i'd say that programming generally is hard enough, and not just for the average programmer, and concurrent programming is just a special case within that. more seriously, some things are more clearly expressed and more easily implemented using concurrent processes or perhaps coroutines, so concurrency ought to be taught, and learned, and well. in contrast to the quote above, in an ancient usenet article, in the context of concurrent programming, i am reasonably certain that rob made the observation that as a discipline, we can learn. he used the example of fork(), which was considered `difficult' when it first appeared, compared to existing notions such as `jobs', but after being studied and taught in advanced programming for a time, it become familiar enough that it was suitable to be taught/used much earlier. that seems to me to be a better quote to use. i'd say from my experience that unless people insist on pronouncing themselves `full' and incapable of accepting any new ideas, which certainly does happen, they can typically learn. (otherwise, they end up saying things such as ``in every other X i've ever seen i could always do Y in this particular way''.) i think in many ways concurrent programming is more general than (say) object-oriented programming, and certainly the language constructions can be much simpler than some object-oriented ones. in other words: if you're capable of understanding `finalised virtual hyperstationary factory class', remembering the Java class hierarchy, and all the details of the Java Media Framework, you are (a) a better man than i am (b) capable of filling your mind with large chunks of complexity, so concurrent programming should be simple by comparison. go for it. ps. i made up the hyperstationary, but then again, it's probably a design pattern. From t.lankots@aprote.ee Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:21:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16931 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:21:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16927 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:21:20 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:21:20 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 022E219E4F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AE8EA19C50; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:21:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E744519E48; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.aprote.ee (ns.aprote.ee [80.235.78.106]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 659D419C50 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: Message by Barricade ns.aprote.ee with ESMTP id i218RLZb009207 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:27:21 +0200 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [9fans] ndb/cs pcauth pcf X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Message-ID: <81132473206F3A46A72BD6116E1A06AE056161@black.aprote.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [9fans] ndb/cs pcauth pcf Thread-Index: AcP/PzbO4h470c2uQi66Y207pV05fAAJJASg From: "Tiit Lankots" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:20:50 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > sysname=3D`{ndb/query ether `{cat /net/ether0/addr} sys} cs ought to do this automagically. I ran into this one last November and there was some discussion on the list (look for "ndb & cs"). >Basically, what I found out was that >After setting up venti, cs stopped recognising my sysname. >It was because the loopback interface got up first on boot, >and because cs looks first by ip address. Now, I had two alternative ways to deal with it: >1) Poke around in /sys/src/cmd/ndb/cs.c and edit it to look >by the ethernet address when by ip it did not succeed.=20 >I did it. >2) Write the ip I get from the dhcp server into /lib/ndb/local. >I did it too. From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:46:34 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19001 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:46:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18997 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:46:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:46:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 87A1019C50; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0A60919C50; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:46:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 936C219E49; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 019D319BEA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:44:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7e3049782c9b96bdd8a5ba0caf4e4b38@plan9.escet.urjc.es> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <000a01c3fd8a$f102c2b0$26fea8c0@SOMA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:44:57 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >> I'm saying that you CANNOT "message pass" a hash table. > > you can. i've done it. I told him, but he them said that calling a function was also message passing, which is not. Passing a fn pointer through a pointer, which IMHO he missed, of course is. IMHO, he should read the source of acme. I did learn a lot by doing so (after decades of doing concurrent programs). From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:48:18 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19161 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:48:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19157 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:48:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:48:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4FEC219E77; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 759F819E5B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:48:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9D6AF19E5B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 65DEE19BEA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:47:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] novice question -- how to stop 9load from asking questions? From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <7412d465acc712b8a1333d2591e99ff1@plan9.ucalgary.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:47:35 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > there's a 'nobootprompt=' plan9.ini(8) variable you can use. > > as for the username the only way i can think of is a hack -- boot a > pccpu kernel which will remember the user information and store it in Well, you have the user= variable, but of course you'd have to type a password as soon as you want to user resources (unless you do what mirtchov suggests and start a cpuserver instead). From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:49:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19371 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:49:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19367 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:49:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:49:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4BD3919BA9; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 91F9919BEA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:49:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6EDEB19ABF; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0106119AB6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:48:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4c9eb75468dd84f2f3ccdd91ac97f572@plan9.escet.urjc.es> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <7e3049782c9b96bdd8a5ba0caf4e4b38@plan9.escet.urjc.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:48:47 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > I told him, but he them said that calling a function was also > message passing, which is not. Passing a fn pointer through > a pointer, which IMHO he missed, of course is. IMHO, he should > read the source of acme. I did learn a lot by doing so (after decades > of doing concurrent programs). I meant this, sorry, not enough coffee yet... I told him, but he then said that calling a function was also message passing, which is not. Passing a fn pointer through a channel, which IMHO he missed, of course is. IMHO, he should read the source of acme. I did learn a lot by doing so (after decades of doing concurrent programs). From dbailey27@ameritech.net Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 17:52:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19631 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 17:52:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19623 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:52:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:52:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2532819E9E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8B6C819E2F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:52:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D309A19E6E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.73]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 466E619E2F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.det.ameritech.net (adsl-68-21-43-189.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net [68.21.43.189]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i218pQ3l088224; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:51:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: forsyth@terzarima.net, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: dbailey27@ameritech.net In-Reply-To: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-rahzlhhsjvyzwuvpuvxfehhtxc" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:46:01 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NO_REAL_NAME,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-rahzlhhsjvyzwuvpuvxfehhtxc Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice --upas-rahzlhhsjvyzwuvpuvxfehhtxc Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline X-Apparently-To: dbailey27@ameritech.net via web80506.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:20:15 -0800 Return-Path: <9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu> Received: from mx1-milwwi.milwwi.ameritech.net (65.43.19.28) by mta825.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:20:14 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [130.203.4.6] Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mx1-milwwi.milwwi.ameritech.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i218KC2d026323 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 02:20:13 -0600 (CST) Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BDB7719E40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EE77B19CA6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:20:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EBCF419E3E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B73E19E36 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:19:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <000901c3ff18$950fe250$26fea8c0@SOMA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:19:16 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** >>i think it was rob, but i'm not sure, who said: > linear is programming is hard enough, but > concurrent programming is beyond the > 'average' programmer. actually, i'd say that programming generally is hard enough, and not just for the average programmer, and concurrent programming is just a special case within that. more seriously, some things are more clearly expressed and more easily implemented using concurrent processes or perhaps coroutines, so concurrency ought to be taught, and learned, and well. in contrast to the quote above, in an ancient usenet article, in the context of concurrent programming, i am reasonably certain that rob made the observation that as a discipline, we can learn. he used the example of fork(), which was considered `difficult' when it first appeared, compared to existing notions such as `jobs', but after being studied and taught in advanced programming for a time, it become familiar enough that it was suitable to be taught/used much earlier. that seems to me to be a better quote to use. i'd say from my experience that unless people insist on pronouncing themselves `full' and incapable of accepting any new ideas, which certainly does happen, they can typically learn. (otherwise, they end up saying things such as ``in every other X i've ever seen i could always do Y in this particular way''.) i think in many ways concurrent programming is more general than (say) object-oriented programming, and certainly the language constructions can be much simpler than some object-oriented ones. in other words: if you're capable of understanding `finalised virtual hyperstationary factory class', remembering the Java class hierarchy, and all the details of the Java Media Framework, you are (a) a better man than i am (b) capable of filling your mind with large chunks of complexity, so concurrent programming should be simple by comparison. go for it. ps. i made up the hyperstationary, but then again, it's probably a design pattern. --upas-rahzlhhsjvyzwuvpuvxfehhtxc-- From lucio@proxima.alt.za Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:00:46 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 20108 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:00:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20104 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:00:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:00:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6DE9019EA4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B66F119E84; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:00:13 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 947B519E7E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8E61E19BA9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i218xn0V008693 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:59:49 +0200 (SAST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id i218xneq008692 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:59:49 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301105948.C29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <7e3049782c9b96bdd8a5ba0caf4e4b38@plan9.escet.urjc.es> <4c9eb75468dd84f2f3ccdd91ac97f572@plan9.escet.urjc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <4c9eb75468dd84f2f3ccdd91ac97f572@plan9.escet.urjc.es>; from Fco.J.Ballesteros on Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 09:48:47AM +0100 Organization: Proxima Research & Development Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:59:48 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 09:48:47AM +0100, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote: > > I told him, but he then said that calling a function was also > message passing, which is not. Passing a fn pointer through > a channel, which IMHO he missed, of course is. IMHO, he should > read the source of acme. I did learn a lot by doing so (after decades > of doing concurrent programs). Surely message passing differs from pointer passing by the mere addition of synchronisation?! In which case I fail to see how Torvalds could consider himself a kernel designer and not recognise the chasm between them. ++L From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 18:28:42 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:01:17 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 20227 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:01:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20218 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:01:16 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:01:16 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A13D019EAB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1B2DA19EA4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:01:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 52E9F19EA5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1BDE919E7E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:00:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0345e8cd87c2b025a4d973acbee93add@plan9.escet.urjc.es> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] group Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:00:56 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I pushed a new version of ip/httpd/group to sources/nemo. To help with locale, I placed the strings seen in the html near the begin of group.c; it should suffice to change them. I've also placed xample template html files under usr/web/groups/dso hth From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 18:28:43 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:05:37 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 20465 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:05:36 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20461 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:05:36 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:05:36 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1909F19EBC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D54B19B4B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:05:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 61F5119EAB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2BEFE19EA8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:04:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <20040301105948.C29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:04:55 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Surely message passing differs from pointer passing by the mere > addition of synchronisation?! Maybe you don't even need that: msg = mallocmsg(...); sendp(chan, msg); Is it a pointer? Sure. Is it a message? Sure. Do we need locks if we transfer ownership (which is an abstract concept)? Not sure. IMHO, Linus really needs to read /sys/src/cmd/acme/xfid.c From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 1 18:28:43 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:16:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21167 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:16:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21162 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:16:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:16:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2403619DB6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A233619EBC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:16:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C1C4219B92; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5458319DB6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:15:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Kenji Okamoto In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:16:10 +0900 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > IMHO, Linus really needs to read /sys/src/cmd/acme/xfid.c One of the most difficult source to me.☺ Kenji From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 1 18:28:43 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:19:24 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21310 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:19:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21305 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:19:24 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:19:24 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5492A19EA8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1C89619EA1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:19:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1462919EA8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A713D19EA1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:18:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a983eb34bd29c877f26eacf2a7a4c8a@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Kenji Okamoto In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:19:25 +0900 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >> IMHO, Linus really needs to read /sys/src/cmd/acme/xfid.c > > One of the most difficult source to me.☺ I meant clear and difficult. Kenji From geoff@collyer.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:17 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:37:34 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22151 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:37:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22147 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:37:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:37:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 358D319ED4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 227BE19EC9; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:37:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0793819E6E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (collyer.ca [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AB8DE19C50 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:36:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <31f3fe5ee597c87b85abb3d60af56a90@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 01:36:49 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I think the original quote Boyd was looking for is this, from the 8½ paper: As discussed in a previous paper [Pike89] I prefer to free applications from event-based programming. Unfortunately, though, I see no easy way to achieve this in single-threaded C programs, and am unwilling to require all programmers to master concurrent programming. Fair enough. Such a sentiment may seem old-fashioned nowadays when everybody seems to want to write multi-threaded, hyper-threaded, multi-tasking programs (it's faster, you know); just look at the links browser. One of the services most operating systems provide is to convert asynchrony (notably activity on other processors and interrupts) into something more manageable. I find that enthusiasm for writing multi-threaded, multi-process programs fades after finding and fixing a few kernel race conditions on multi-processor systems. Finally, from a fortune file: Von Neumann's greatest gift was to get us OUT of parallel processors. -E. Miya From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:17 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:37:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22161 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:37:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22156 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:37:41 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:37:41 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id F266E19ED8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A6BDF19ED2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:37:19 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2942E19E6E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C6F9319C50 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i219YNki064853 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:34:23 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i219YNhh064852 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:34:23 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403010934.i219YNhh064852@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:34:23 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > in other words: if you're capable of understanding `finalised virtual hyperstationary factory class', > remembering the Java class hierarchy, and all the details of the Java Media Framework, In fact, there is no such thing as 'virtual' in Java, it is from other languages. Finalised cannot be a feature of a class in a hierarchy, since finalized is a state of an object after it was deleted and it is only needed to define the semantics of the language, not to program in it; remembering all the details of Java Media Framework is no more necessary than remembering all the details of PDF 1.5 specification -- unless you earn money by winning contests on writing multimedia java applets or checking PDF generators for conformance. Factory in Java is a simple concept, one more level of indirection. Think of it as something similar to 'bind' in Plan9. In general, Java is very close to Plan9 in many things. It is built to provide a cleaner and smaller alternative to C++; it offers very few concepts to learn -- and the extensive libraries are not meant to learn -- there are javadocs for them. The core language and system design is small and logical. It bears many ideas from Oberon (the system acme took its interface and interaction design), including the language design and the idea of embedded applets. Parallel programming in Java is easy and natural, as easy and natural as in other language or system or even easier, dare I say it. You just use threads, and use basic language features, such as variable scopes, to have shared and private thread resources. No additional flags and bits to remember; everything is easy and straightforward. I think that the major objection against Java is its closedness, but Plan9 has this problem too -- and it is being solved for both designs. David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:17 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 18:39:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22307 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 18:39:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22303 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 18:39:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 18:39:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8C4E319ECD; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EBB119BB7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:39:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 920D919DAC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 73BC519ED8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i219ZWki064864 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:35:32 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i219ZWMh064863 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:35:32 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403010935.i219ZWMh064863@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] novice question -- how to stop 9load from asking questions? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:35:32 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > Well, you have the user= variable, but of course you'd have to > type a password as soon as you want to user resources (unless you > do what mirtchov suggests and start a cpuserver instead). I have in fact set up a cpu server. That's what I wanted. David From forsyth@terzarima.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:18 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 19:03:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 24571 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:03:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24566 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:03:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:03:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0E98D19ECD; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 13AC619EB2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:03:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3EE2919EC9; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ECB0519E69 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:02:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <09df9b2e5f6c9f2e600201fc413ad12e@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403010934.i219YNhh064852@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:02:34 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** >>languages. Finalised cannot be a feature of a class in a hierarchy, >>since finalized is a state of an object after it was deleted and it >>is only needed to define the semantics of the language, not to ``[the programmer has] the ability to declare classes or methods as "final". [they cannot be overriden in a subclass]. The language guarantees that the actual method invoked on the object is the {finalised method} [my {}] which was written for that class...'' it was that sense i meant, not object destruction. From lucio@proxima.alt.za Mon Mar 1 21:42:18 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 19:15:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25213 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:15:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25209 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:15:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:15:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DD94C19BEB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1111D19AE8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:15:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2475A19AE8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0E7F119B0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i21AEm0V009203 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:14:48 +0200 (SAST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id i21AElc9009202 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:14:47 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] imap4d and Outlook Message-ID: <20040301121446.D29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <20040229194337.A29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <27b7658f4e965a8acfe73430e3f4d269@plan9.bell-labs.com> <20040301064307.B29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <20040301064307.B29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za>; from Lucio De Re on Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 06:43:08AM +0200 Organization: Proxima Research & Development Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:14:47 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 06:43:08AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: > > It seemed such an obvious fault, I thought someone else would have > picked on it. I'll try and find some time to dig deeper. > Curiously, the year is either 1 or 2, I have seen many 1s and very few 2s. The day of the month has little bearing on the dates applicable in the actual message, but I presume Outlook's idea of a "received" time stamp comes from some other source? ++L From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:18 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 19:15:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25223 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:15:40 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25219 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:15:40 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:15:40 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8FF2D19BFB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 70B1819BFB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:15:17 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A65B819B15; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36BB819AE0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21ACVki065008 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:12:31 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21ACV3l065007 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:12:31 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403011012.i21ACV3l065007@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <09df9b2e5f6c9f2e600201fc413ad12e@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:12:31 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > >>since finalized is a state of an object after it was deleted and it > >>is only needed to define the semantics of the language, not to > > ``[the programmer has] the ability to declare classes or methods as "final". [they cannot > be overriden in a subclass]. The language guarantees that the actual method invoked on > the object is the {finalised method} [my {}] which was written for that class...'' > > it was that sense i meant, not object destruction. Isn't it like bind without -c? From geoff@collyer.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:18 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:29:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 27275 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:02:38 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27271 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:02:38 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:02:38 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 235F819C40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BBFE819B40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:02:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A3E8A19C27; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (mail.collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8E0CF19B40 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:01:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7a1a8800d83f4e8b7967fd88c3af1d2a@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:01:12 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: from a fortune file: The steady state of disks is full. --Ken Thompson I believe it was Mike O'Dell who asked (approximately) `Why is it that despite processors getting faster, there never seems to be any additional cycles available to me?'. His answer was window systems and networks, among others. From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:31:00 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 28653 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:31:00 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28649 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:30:57 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:30:57 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4C72319D21; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 228EC19CE3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:30:37 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2FC0419C46; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5DDA819C46 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21BRXki065349 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:27:33 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21BRXFA065348 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:27:33 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403011127.i21BRXFA065348@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Subject: [9fans] /n/kfs? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:27:33 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Novice question: extra images are relying on /n/kfs. At which point /n/kfs is supposed to be mounted? (I did it manually, but when it should be done)? David From geoff@collyer.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:33:10 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 27402 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:06:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27398 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:06:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:06:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 74C6119CE2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1D4B419CBD; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:06:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B154B19C90; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (mail.collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3BDBC19BC9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:05:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 over Linux? From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: <196f381b.0402281054.64590cad@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 03:05:24 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Plan 9 isn't Unix, it's a distributed system built from the ground up to run over varied networks, to provide good fast graphics capability, to provide permanent storage with daily views available, and to exploit shared-memory multiprocessors, all unlike Unix. See http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc/plan9.html for a longer answer. From bengt.kleberg@ericsson.com Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:36:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26297 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:36:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26293 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:36:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:36:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9FAE319CA8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3D7A819C72; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7E2E919C2F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3A61E19C2F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1AxklR-0002ty-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:09 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Bengt Kleberg Message-ID: Organization: Ericsson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1077899988.21772.196.camel@zevon>, Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:34:56 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Linus Torvalds wrote: ...deleted > > Methinks you have read a few too many papers about microkernels, without > actually seeing the real world. do not forget that applications running on microkernels are faster than on monolithic kernels. see http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/exo bengt This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). 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From a_serkov@list.ru Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:36:55 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26304 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:36:54 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26300 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:36:54 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:36:54 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3950819D10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C68D119C72; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:19 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4C82519C30; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 29BCB19C21 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1AxklS-0002u4-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:10 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Alexander Serkov Message-ID: <503d4a23.0402280147.7b53534e@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Problems booting Plan9 CD Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:35:07 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I've my old PC and wish to use it as Plan9 Box I've read supported hardware and it seems it should work: Intel Celeron 366 VIA Apollo Pro chipset 3Com 3c905b ethernet card S3 Savage4 vidio Ultra DMA 33 IDE drive. But when CD from 20040227 starts booting kernel it hangs after the following message: pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.7.2 at pin 4 link 5 irq9 -> 10 Can abybody sujest me something? From vin@theworld.com Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:37:05 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26314 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:37:04 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26310 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:37:04 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:37:04 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C636119D7D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0B77519C30; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:36:31 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id AA3F619C40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5141919C21 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1AxklR-0002ts-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:09 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Vin McLellan Message-ID: <1f85b7d9.0402271411.f477f42@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: , <20040227013823.0c2ba797@garlic> Subject: Re: [9fans] pathetic Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:34:44 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Ron Minnich asked: >What I want to know is, what was Mr. Bill holding in his hand? http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/02/25/microsoft.rsa.ap/index.html >It sure got the journalists excited -- that picture was everywhere. The AP photo slug described it an "encrypted tag" -- whatever that is -- but Ron said "it looked like a USB dongle." George Michaelson reported: .> Its SecureID re-worked into a smaller format from what I read .> elsewhere. Close but not quite accurate. It's the classic RSA SecurID key fob, the same size as its been for the past six or seven years. Maybe like many things -- markets, competitors, nations -- SecurIDs look smaller when they are lie in the palm of Bill G;-) RSA's SecurID, for those who don't know, is a hand-held authentication token that uses the AES cipher to hash "Current Time," and a 128-bit secret, to generate (and continuously display in a small LCD) a series of 6-8 digit pseudo-random tokencodes that flip over every 60 seconds. (One-time passwords like this are typically used as evidence of "something held," and are paired with a user-memorized PIN or password, "something known," for two-factor authentication -- the classical definition of "strong authentication.") The key fob has been the most popular form-factor for the SecurID for years, but many people -- including perhaps the AP photo editor -- still picture the SecurID as the credit card-size device that was its most common "form-factor" through the late 1980s and early 1990s. Today, however, there are 7 or 8 different SecurID form-factors, including the SecurID card and key fob, but also including software modules that can be downloaded for Palm Pilots, Pocket PCs, Blackberries, Nokia and Sony/Ericsson mobile phones, as well as desktop PCs (where the physical security justifies the added risk.) There is a whole spectrum of greater and lesser security associated with the implementations in these various form factors, obviously, but market demand continues to push SecurID functionality into devices the user already carries, and the SecurID's trustworthiness ultimately boils down to RSA's cryptographic grip on the 128-bit seed, the AES-protected shared secret. I'll be surprised if RSA, for which I am a consultant, doesn't finally deliver, in '04, the SecurID wristwatch that SecurID inventor Ken Weiss was talking about in '87. Guessing that the SecurID is shrinking was smart, George -- but the SecurID widget Bill G was waving around was just a standard SecurID fob. You guys are obviously correct to note that increased the rigor of the user authentication mechanism won't preclude attacks on the underlying Windows infrastructure, but -- by extending SecurID to the off-line PCs (a la S/key), and installing ACE/Agents (to demand two-factor authentication) at the domain controllers and terminal servers -- MS will greatly enhance the grandularity of the IT audit record. In a marketplace increasingly shaped by HIPAA, Sarbane Oxley, and world-wide privacy regs, that itself has high value in corporate IT. Suerte, _Vin From forsyth@terzarima.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:41:35 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26426 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:41:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26422 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:41:33 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:41:33 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4EF1119C90; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B1F4A19C40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7575319C90; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B584519C40 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:40:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403010934.i219YNhh064852@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:40:16 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** my point was just that programmers, presumably `average' ones as well, often need to come to grips with a fair number of non-trivial things, and they are often rather specific (as with the JMF). it seems to me that if programmers can deal with things such as those (not just those particular things), there's a reasonable chance that at least a good percentage can indeed deal with something that is more fundamental, and more general. of course part of what is discovered, taught and learnt, is what discipline to follow to avoid trouble (as in structured programming), and even when concurrency is best avoided. of course talents will vary, but even so. >>remembering all the details >>of Java Media Framework is no more necessary than remembering all i chose it as an example of a moderately complex interface only because i was on the JMF email list years ago and still retain the following e-mail message from that list, as an example of how one can produce fairly intricate interfaces (that did get in the way). my favourite part is the last paragraph, which reminds me of the sketch in the Life of Brian: ``the people's liberation army of judea'', ``the judean people's liberation army'', ... . splitters! Subject: DataSource and Player coupling ... I'm writing a java.media.content.reliable.DataSource implementation for use with Intels Java Media implementation. I'm not sure how to get the framework to use my DataSource without resorting to writing my own Player implementation (or instantiating an undocumented internal Player implementation) I could use a unique protocol (e.g. softcom:) and implement a java.media.protocol.softcom.PlayerFinder which somehow determines the MIME type and then calls java.media.content.reliable..PlayerFinder.createPlayer() passing an instance of my DataSource implementation. Or I could create an instance of my DataSource and create an instance of the correct content PlayerFinder directly, e.g.: DataSource ds = new MyDataSource(url); java.media.content.reliable.PlayerFactory pf = new java.media.content.reliable.video.mpeg.PlayerFinder(); m_jmPlayer = pf.createPlayer(ds); I would still need to determine the MIME type of the source URL in order to locate the PlayerFinder. ... DataSource and Player implementations seem tightly bound together in the framework. I would think they should be independent so I can mix and match DataSources with Player implementations. Also, it seems strange that the DataSource is in a content specific package, e.g. java.media.content.reliable..DataSource. The DataSource doesn't need to know anything about the content - it just reads raw bytes - why does it care if they are MPEG, AVI, WAV etc.? It would seem more sensible to tie the DataSource to the protocol, e.g. java.media.protocol..DataSource. In fact, why are the reliable and streaming packages tied to content type (java.media.content.reliable and java.media.content.streaming)? It's the protocol that is reliable or streaming, not the content (is MPEG reliable or streaming? it depends on the protocol). Shouldn't these packages be named java.media.protocol.reliable and java.media.protocol.streaming? From viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:51:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30020 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:51:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30015 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:51:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:51:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2335C19D6C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9EB8819CC6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:51:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CB0C419D3B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.linux.org.uk (parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk [195.92.249.252]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CC16119CC6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from viro by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 4.22) id 1AxlwI-0003F3-86 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:50:26 +0000 From: viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301115026.GM16357@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> References: <20040228185347.GE16357@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> <5a05620eae26919c3e145b7cb21bf9e5@terzarima.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5a05620eae26919c3e145b7cb21bf9e5@terzarima.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:50:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 07:44:31PM +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote: > >>For Linux such experiments had been done and results were very clear - > >>price of TLB flushes was considerable and that's aside of the complexity > >>of supporting a lot of mappings with partial VM sharing. For Plan 9 the > > were those real applications or a synthetic test? i'm curious what it actually did. > sorry, wrong question. can you please point me to the paper and/or file that might answer them? Hmm... Probably Ingo Molnar would have all details. IIRC, that was on real applications, but back then I was dealing with filesystem side of things and not much else, so that's second-hand information. I can ask him for details if you want them; I certainly agree that e.g. presense of shared libraries changes the picture, so those results do not apply directly to Plan 9 and if somebody really cares they should try and compare for normal Plan 9 workloads. From DAGwyn@null.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:51:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26934 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:51:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26930 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:51:43 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:51:43 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B791619C53; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8F3AA19B4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id ACDEE19C34; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B3E319BBB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1AxkmU-0002wt-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:36:14 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20040228144033.1227.qmail@mail.dirac.net>, <2e53d0b955987afff06292756dc7e4c9@collyer.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] spam (was "pathetic") Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:35:54 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Geoff Collyer wrote: > One reason you get so much paper spam (junk mail) is that the post > office (at least in the US and I believe Canada) *subsidises* the > spammers: they get lower postal rates for bulk spamming. But by presorting they lower processing cost. Last time I heard a Postmaster explain this, he said that actually the bulk-rate mail paid its way while first-class did not. That was before several increases in first-class postal rates, however, so perhaps now they both do. From jjk3@msstate.edu Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:51:57 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26966 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:51:55 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26962 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:51:55 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:51:55 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3877919CB4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E65519C71; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:19 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BB0CA19BBB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 73BEC19B45 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1AxkmU-0002wn-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:36:14 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Konkle-Parker Message-ID: <196f381b.0402281054.64590cad@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 over Linux? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:35:43 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Admittedly, I haven't tried Plan9 (other than the installer), but I've read a lot on the website. But I'm still somewhat confused: what is the benefit of Plan 9 over, say, Linux? What's different? I've read that everything's a file... ok, that's great, but what's the benefit in that? Is that the only improvement? -- Joel Konkle-Parker Webmaster [Ballsome.com] E-mail [jjk3@msstate.edu] From DAGwyn@null.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:52:14 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26987 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:52:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26983 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:52:12 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:52:12 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 44FF519D43; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2496719B40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:40 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8B89919C4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 48E4F19C34 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1Axkly-0002vD-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:42 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <6-idnevZ5fB1K93dRVn-jA@comcast.com> Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20040228105025.1a94f714.martin@parvat.com>, <000d01c3fddf$72cc45b0$2bdcfea9@blue> Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:35:19 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Nigel Roles wrote: > The performance argument may well still be regarded by Linus as > stronger, but there are other differences. One is that the stack > used by the clone, being allocated on the heap, is fixed in size, > and unprotected from overflow. That would be a serious flaw on a system with a small address space. It's problematic anyway in its inefficient use of PTEs for the process, since far more table entries are needed (extra stack for each thread). However, overflow detection can in principle be achieved by mapping all pages of each thread's private stack region except for the last page, which allows the MMU to flag any overflow. From DAGwyn@null.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:54:06 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26980 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 19:52:04 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26976 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 19:52:04 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 19:52:04 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 19A7E19CCD; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4817D19CC6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:51:29 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9CFE719B45; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2E04F19B4C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 05:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 1Axkly-0002vJ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:42 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <000d01c3fddf$72cc45b0$2bdcfea9@blue>, <00c801c3fdff$414b7d60$26fea8c0@SOMA> Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:35:31 GMT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: boyd, rounin wrote: > get real, we're no longer using 1 MIP VAXes, where TLB flushes > etc were a real problem. 128 users on an 11/780, anyone? There are a large number of platforms where there are important constraints imposed by the MMU architecture. Consider what it means when an OS requires such resources that it cannot feasibly be implemented on a VAX, yet does almost nothing more than could have readily been done (with a different design) on a VAX. It's nearly as bad as a 1GHz machine getting so bogged down with GUI code and poor interface design that some common tasks take longer to accomplish than on a 1MHz PDP-11 running Unix. (Whose "Law" was it that said that file storage always expands to fill whatever disk resources are available? The same thing seems to apply to CPU cycles.) From dbailey27@ameritech.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:55:25 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30265 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:55:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30261 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:55:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:55:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D8CF819D73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6E35F19D40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:55:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5881219D40; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.73]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EBD2C19D4E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.det.ameritech.net (adsl-68-21-43-189.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net [68.21.43.189]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i21BsR3l240908; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:54:27 -0500 Message-ID: <63247fd2ce66c84bd14cc224ba6fd70b@yourdomain.dom> To: viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: dbailey27@ameritech.net In-Reply-To: <20040301115026.GM16357@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:49:02 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,NO_REAL_NAME, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * > Hmm... Probably Ingo Molnar would have all details. IIRC, that was on real > applications, but back then I was dealing with filesystem side of things and > not much else, so that's second-hand information. I can ask him for details > if you want them; Yes, please. Don From dvd@davidashen.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 20:59:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30554 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 20:59:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30550 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 20:59:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 20:59:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 96F5819DAC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C3BF619D73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:59:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2F01619D64; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E33919D89 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21Bu1ki065528 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:56:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21Bu1Mr065527 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:56:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403011156.i21Bu1Mr065527@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:56:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > i chose it as an example of a moderately complex interface only > because i was on the JMF email list years ago and still Yes, it was a good example. Do you think limbo is better for learning/teaching parallel programming ideas than C+rfork? David Tolpin From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 21:08:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 375 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 21:08:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 359 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 21:08:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 21:08:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 66EC219DD6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A412319D73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:08:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 70DA119D89; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams018.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n18.valueweb.net [216.219.253.56]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0CD2919D7D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <430077-25051>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:06:28 -0500 References: <31f3fe5ee597c87b85abb3d60af56a90@collyer.net> In-Reply-To: <31f3fe5ee597c87b85abb3d60af56a90@collyer.net> From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.070628-0500_est.430077-25051+15078@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 07:06:28 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Geoff Collyer writes: > I find that enthusiasm > for writing multi-threaded, multi-process programs fades after finding > and fixing a few kernel race conditions on multi-processor systems. yes, ... From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 21:42:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 21:20:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3834 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 21:20:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3830 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 21:20:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 21:20:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5F3B719DEA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5579119DAC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:20:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0D6C919D73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams008.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n08.valueweb.net [216.219.253.156]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CEDA419BAB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <387693-24448>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:18:58 -0500 References: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> In-Reply-To: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.071858-0500_est.387693-24448+36064@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 07:18:58 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Charles Forsyth writes: > ps. i made up the hyperstationary, but then again, it's probably a design pattern. ROTFLMAO From nemo@lsub.org Mon Mar 1 23:15:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 22:30:56 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 8247 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 22:30:56 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8243 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 22:30:56 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 22:30:56 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1131119E1B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4619B19DF0; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:30:35 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C858E19DF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F246019DE1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:29:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4eaf2935c987231f4b35511b0259108c@plan9.escet.urjc.es> From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <04Mar1.071858-0500_est.387693-24448+36064@ams.ftl.affinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-eqloczgnlzdtxpgkkrakpknlpu" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:29:04 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-eqloczgnlzdtxpgkkrakpknlpu Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ROTFLMAO ?? --upas-eqloczgnlzdtxpgkkrakpknlpu Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by aquamar; Mon Mar 1 13:20:30 MET 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C895D19DD3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5579119DAC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:20:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0D6C919D73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams008.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n08.valueweb.net [216.219.253.156]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CEDA419BAB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <387693-24448>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:18:58 -0500 References: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> In-Reply-To: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.071858-0500_est.387693-24448+36064@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 07:18:58 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Charles Forsyth writes: > ps. i made up the hyperstationary, but then again, it's probably a design pattern. ROTFLMAO --upas-eqloczgnlzdtxpgkkrakpknlpu-- From lucio@proxima.alt.za Mon Mar 1 23:15:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 22:36:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 8698 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 22:36:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8694 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 22:36:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 22:36:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9946E19B28; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DEDB819C53; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:36:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5101519B8F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparkle.iba.co.za (server.iba.co.za [196.30.44.140]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3F55519B28 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (prawn.iba.co.za [192.168.30.22]) by sparkle.iba.co.za (8.11.7/8.11.5) with ESMTP id i21DUnW12464 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:31:02 +0200 (SAST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Organization: Proxima Research & Development From: lucio@proxima.alt.za In-Reply-To: <4eaf2935c987231f4b35511b0259108c@plan9.escet.urjc.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030221) (sparkle) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:33:57 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > ROTFLMAO ?? Roll on the floor laughing my arse off! ++L From boyd@insultant.net Mon Mar 1 23:15:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 22:57:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 9883 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 22:57:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9879 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 22:57:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 22:57:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2812419E1B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7616119B58; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:57:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 80D3319DD6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3042619C82 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <315756-10376>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:55:30 -0500 References: <4eaf2935c987231f4b35511b0259108c@plan9.escet.urjc.es> In-Reply-To: <4eaf2935c987231f4b35511b0259108c@plan9.escet.urjc.es> From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.085530-0500_est.315756-10376+2021@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 08:55:28 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu writes: > ROTFLMAO ?? Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Arse Off From Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl Tue Mar 2 10:03:05 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 23:38:41 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12554 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 23:38:40 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12550 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 23:38:40 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 23:38:40 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0AE3F19C82; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3B1EF19C76; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:38:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8711719C71; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF5FB19B58 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i21EbOCi018925 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl (zamenhof [130.89.13.77]) by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i21EbNai029204 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id i21EbNd20123 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:23 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200403011437.i21EbNd20123@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] spam (was "pathetic") In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:35:54 +0000." References: <20040228144033.1227.qmail@mail.dirac.net>, <2e53d0b955987afff06292756dc7e4c9@collyer.net> From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:37:23 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Doug replied: > Geoff Collyer wrote: > > One reason you get so much paper spam (junk mail) is that the post > > office (at least in the US and I believe Canada) *subsidises* the > > spammers: they get lower postal rates for bulk spamming. > > But by presorting they lower processing cost. Last time > I heard a Postmaster explain this, he said that actually > the bulk-rate mail paid its way while first-class did not. > That was before several increases in first-class postal > rates, however, so perhaps now they both do. Here in the netherlands we also have a reduced price for 'bulk' (> 250 items?) postings, which also have to be offered in a presorted way -- and at the time (10 years ago?) I was involved in sending out some post this way, you were given a nice small booklet with the sorting rules, and you could buy from the post a program that would help you to get the 'bundle' info for easier sorting on your address labels. The program was pretty expensive, something like euro 350 or so. When I made a remark about that when handing in my presorted bundles, like 'presorting makes your job easier, giving us the program makes it easier for us to comply to the presorting rules' the post man told me that basically they (he?) did not care too much about the (my) presorting anyway because their automatic sorters could do that job just as easily anyway... (ok, we were a very small client, some 250 items every two months) With respect to paper spam avoidance: here in the netherlands we have two kind of official labels you can put on your mailbox: Ja - Nee (yes to unscubscribed house-to-house ditributed newspapers, no to non-addressed advertisements), and Nee - Nee (No to both of them) They work well - only occasionally something unwanted slips though. Axel. From rsc@pdos.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 2 10:03:05 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 23:41:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12612 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 23:41:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12608 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 23:41:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 23:41:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9C6B819C8A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EF4F819C76; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:41:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6646419CB2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from t40.swtch.com (node-40245942.bos.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.89.66]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6957E19B7E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=t40.swtch.com) by t40.swtch.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Axob2-000HhP-BC for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:40:40 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:34:56 GMT." From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <68037.1078152038.1@t40.swtch.com> Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:40:38 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > do not forget that applications running on microkernels are faster than > on monolithic kernels. see http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/exo no. applications running on a kernel tailored to the benchmark are faster than applications running on a generic kernel. exokernel != microkernel. - rsc@pdos.lcs.mit.edu From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 10:03:05 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Mar 1 23:56:16 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 13406 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Mar 2004 23:56:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13402 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 23:56:16 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 23:56:16 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1237019ABF; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 689F719B06; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:56:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 046B1199F6; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E24CC199E1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:55:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <775a59e829ab84dbe26122f7effedbc7@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <04Mar1.070628-0500_est.430077-25051+15078@ams.ftl.affinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:55:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Its like anything else, once you get used to it, you make less mistakes. From Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl Tue Mar 2 10:03:05 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 00:08:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14051 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 00:08:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14047 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 00:08:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 00:08:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 73A1119CB4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EACEE19D5F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:08:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BA23019B55; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2DB8E19AAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i21F7CCi022074 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl (zamenhof [130.89.13.77]) by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i21F7Cai012846 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id i21F7Cl20360 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200403011507.i21F7Cl20360@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] spam (was "pathetic") In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:37:23 +0100." <200403011437.i21EbNd20123@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl> References: <20040228144033.1227.qmail@mail.dirac.net>, <2e53d0b955987afff06292756dc7e4c9@collyer.net> <200403011437.i21EbNd20123@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl> From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:07:11 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: to continue OT, I wrote: > With respect to paper spam avoidance in the netherlands [there is an official avoidance scheme withe labels on mailboxes] > They work well - only occasionally something unwanted slips though. And maybe that's the reason (combined with low effectiveness of even 'well targeted' direct mail?) that we nowadays get those unsolicited phone calls 'do you have a minute?'. they are _really_ annoying. and when I suggest 'whatever you have to say, why don't you stuff it in an envelope and mail it to me' they say: 'no, out of principle, we never send something...'. oh well.. From boyd@insultant.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 00:19:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 14548 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 00:19:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14544 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 00:19:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 00:19:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0D1C919CE3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DB4AF19CE3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:19:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4F14B199F9; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams001.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n01.valueweb.net [216.219.253.85]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6D6DE19D48 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <322744-23975>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:17:15 -0500 References: In-Reply-To: From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.101715-0500_est.322744-23975+2739@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:17:15 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Russ Cox writes: > exokernel != microkernel. Correct! -- Justin Hawkins, The Darkness. From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 00:48:35 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 15917 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 00:48:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15913 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 00:48:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 00:48:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 704D219DDA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 15DDE19C64; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:48:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5D97919C50; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E9BF4199C0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FlJb5012924 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:47:19 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FlIWE012293 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:47:19 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FlIfQ029926 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:47:18 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040301105948.C29577@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:47:18 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Lucio De Re wrote: > Surely message passing differs from pointer passing by the mere addition > of synchronisation?! In which case I fail to see how Torvalds could > consider himself a kernel designer and not recognise the chasm between > them. In most people's minds message passing passing usually means 'move the data from this hole here to that hole there'. Of course in any optimized situation (shared memory) this can be done with pointer hacks. And even in the optimized situations, message passing libraries as measured are at least one or two orders of magnitude slower than simple 'hand the pointer around', esp. on shared-memory and CC-NUMA systems -- I can give you references, if you wish, or you can google Jim Taft's work at NASA AMES. There's a hardware reason for the performance difference. Do people care about that difference? Yes! If you just dropped $10-20M on a computer, do you want to get $500K worth of performance out of it, or would you rather get more like $10-20M out of it? Your call. Better yet, assume your job rests on the decision, then make the decision :-) Point to Linus on this one, I think. Sorry. On another note, the Linux guys are not kernel designers in many senses of that word. From my point of view Linux is an extremely competent implementation of some really good and some really bad OS ideas -- ranging from V6 Unix syscall interface to later ideas such as VFS. And, like it or not, it works very very well for many people, including the several thousand systems we have here that run it for high performance computing. Credit where credit is due. And, that said, I'm still gradually moving my existence over to Plan 9. ron From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 00:57:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16442 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 00:57:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16438 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 00:57:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 00:57:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 00C1119DF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9969F19C64; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:57:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5376919D48; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 18FF619C64 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FuBb5016150 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:11 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FuAWE016809 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:10 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21FuAfQ030307 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:10 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:56:09 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Bengt Kleberg wrote: > > > > Methinks you have read a few too many papers about microkernels, without > > actually seeing the real world. > > do not forget that applications running on microkernels are faster than > on monolithic kernels. see http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/exo so I assume you are running this on your machines? ron From rasputnik@hellooperator.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:10:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16973 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:10:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16967 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:10:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:10:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EA61819CD2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C551419BBC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:10:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7DDDC19C4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from idoru.mine.nu (cpc3-cdif2-3-0-cust202.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.32.202]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A280719C1B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.4.0.6] (helo=hellooperator.net) by idoru.mine.nu with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AxpzH-0003Jg-20 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:09:47 +0000 Message-ID: <4043604A.6000605@hellooperator.net> From: Dick Davies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:09:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** ron minnich wrote: > I think I sent this before, but it's so nice I am sending it again. > > Scenario: an EPIA with linuxbios and plan 9 in flash. cpu is named cpu50. > You want to muck with the kernel and debug it. Easy. > > . bind_test_namespace > cd /sys/src/9/pc > mk 'CONF=whatever' > cpu -h cpu50 > echo 'reboot /path/to/9whatever' > /dev/reboot > > boom. 9 boots 9. takes 5 seconds. If it blows up, cpu is back in 10 > seconds. Nice - this is the 9grid cluster, right? Do you have a howto anywhere for your linuxbios voodoo? From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:18:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 17511 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:18:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17507 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:18:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:18:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D1BEF19CBD; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 583AD19BBC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:18:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CF4B319C1B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7027119B57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21GHPb5024860 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:17:25 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21GHPWE029035 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:17:25 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21GHOfQ031284 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:17:24 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff In-Reply-To: <4043604A.6000605@hellooperator.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:17:24 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Dick Davies wrote: > Nice - this is the 9grid cluster, right? > Do you have a howto anywhere for your linuxbios voodoo? I have to update the wiki ... andrey was talking about finding a way to provide ituners pre-loaded, we'll see. Now andrey can get mad at me for letting cat out of bag. ron From lucio@proxima.alt.za Tue Mar 2 10:03:06 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:25:35 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 17940 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:25:35 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17936 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:25:35 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:25:35 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 868B519DD3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24AC519DE8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:25:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 84D0F19C76; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparkle.iba.co.za (beam.iba.co.za [196.30.44.140]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7E60219C50 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (prawn.iba.co.za [192.168.30.22]) by sparkle.iba.co.za (8.11.7/8.11.5) with ESMTP id i21GKPW17615 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:20:26 +0200 (SAST) Message-ID: <180eecfedf4d332edb744c24b27bc9ed@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Organization: Proxima Research & Development From: lucio@proxima.alt.za In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030221) (sparkle) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:23:33 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > In most people's minds message passing passing usually means 'move the > data from this hole here to that hole there'. Of course in any optimized > situation (shared memory) this can be done with pointer hacks. And even in > the optimized situations, message passing libraries as measured are at > least one or two orders of magnitude slower than simple 'hand the pointer > around', esp. on shared-memory and CC-NUMA systems -- I can give you > references, if you wish, or you can google Jim Taft's work at NASA AMES. > There's a hardware reason for the performance difference. > I don't understand what is being measured in this case. Surely one doesn't go to Linus Torvalds to get specifications for the design of on operating system for a specialised piece of equipment? Ever since before Unix, the emphasis has been on portability, OS design has sacrificed performance to the objective of being able to continue using applications on the newer, faster hardware. At least, that is how it seems to me. > Do people care about that difference? Yes! If you just dropped $10-20M on > a computer, do you want to get $500K worth of performance out of it, or > would you rather get more like $10-20M out of it? Your call. Better yet, > assume your job rests on the decision, then make the decision :-) > Sure. But then did the price include optimised software, or do you expect to run some off-the-street operating software on your performance host? By the time you spend money in that order of magnitude, you can afford to employ the few software architects that still understand low-level programming and get them to squeeze every bit of performance out of your horse. Or would you ask Torvalds to drive the next generation of Grand Prix Ferrari to win the racing season? > Point to Linus on this one, I think. Sorry. > No ways, it's a mismatch. Torvalds just organically grew an OS from Minix, for the Intel architecture. The Great Barrier Reef likewise grew organically, but is unlikely to be recommended as the dam wall for the Yellow River. > On another note, the Linux guys are not kernel designers in many senses of > that word. From my point of view Linux is an extremely competent > implementation of some really good and some really bad OS ideas -- ranging > from V6 Unix syscall interface to later ideas such as VFS. And, like it > or not, it works very very well for many people, including the several > thousand systems we have here that run it for high performance computing. > Credit where credit is due. > One can't hold against Torvalds the decision to stick to the Unix paradigm, no one else had much of a better choice at the time. But to defend it in the face of obvious obsolescence is unforgivable. And to suggest that performance is a significant factor in the design of a generic operating system is laughable. > And, that said, I'm still gradually moving my existence over to Plan 9. > Which makes you a lot more practical than Torvalds. Presumably microoptimisations are not saving you millions of dollars. Nor me :-) ++L From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:34:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 18464 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:34:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18459 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:34:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:34:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BCDEF19E17; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7D7C819DF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:34:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 48A0C19C82; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9-2.ucalgary.ca (fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.7.68]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 23DCB19D5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:33:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:33:14 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Now andrey can get mad at me for letting cat out of bag. 1. you buy the ituner 2. we send you a linuxbios image to flash the bios with 3. we send you a linuxbios-enabled cpu kernel to boot 4. ??? 5. profit! but seriously, nobody (i think) is going to attempt selling plan9-certified hardware unless you can use it as terminals, which we can't do with the ituners yet... andrey From boyd@insultant.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:39:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19017 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:39:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19013 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:39:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:39:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B252419E17; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C956C19DE8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:39:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 965B819DD3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 23E0219AAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by ams.ftl.affinity.com id <321558-10371>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:37:21 -0500 References: In-Reply-To: From: boyd@insultant.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <04Mar1.113721-0500_est.321558-10371+3181@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:37:21 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >> Now andrey can get mad at me for letting cat out of bag. > > 1. you buy the ituner > 2. we send you a linuxbios image to flash the bios with > 3. we send you a linuxbios-enabled cpu kernel to boot > 4. ??? > 5. profit! send me one. From lucio@proxima.alt.za Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:41:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19203 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:41:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19199 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:41:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:41:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id ABE8419E12; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2386319E11; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6929519DD3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparkle.iba.co.za (beam.iba.co.za [196.30.44.140]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3341F19D48 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (prawn.iba.co.za [192.168.30.22]) by sparkle.iba.co.za (8.11.7/8.11.5) with ESMTP id i21GaPW17790 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:36:25 +0200 (SAST) Message-ID: <16af215d3298eb9bb68f7ea3e8d376eb@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff Organization: Proxima Research & Development From: lucio@proxima.alt.za In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030221) (sparkle) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:39:32 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > but seriously, nobody (i think) is going to attempt selling > plan9-certified hardware unless you can use it as terminals, which we > can't do with the ituners yet... > I dunno, maybe you can sell them as hosted servers. I'm currently looking at installing a server at a hosting site, with a WAN link to my office/network. I'm not convinced that with a bit of local disk (10GB of 3½" drive, say) a Plan 9 ituner would not be a serious contender. Specially if two of them can fit into a 1U bracket. Just a thought. ++L From matt@proweb.co.uk Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 01:53:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19889 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 01:53:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19885 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 01:53:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 01:53:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5AFCA19C51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1AE8819B4F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:53:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A28C319C51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from juice.thebigchoice.com (cpc1-nott2-3-0-cust18.nott.cable.ntl.com [80.4.204.18]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 39E9619AC6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:52:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <478ff31bb839756a4b2facfb0c05cd7e@juice.thebigchoice.com> From: matt@proweb.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] spam (was "pathetic") In-Reply-To: <200403011507.i21F7Cl20360@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:55:13 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.9 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** OT but the UK "do not call list" has worked for me http://www.tpsonline.org.uk I've had 1 sales call since Sept. 2002 when I joined, down from 1 per week beforehand. m From matthias@mteege.de Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 02:06:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 20666 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 02:06:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20661 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:06:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:06:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 75C8F19C81; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7B45419C7E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:06:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5F99019CD2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from one.mteege.de (one.mteege.de [81.2.131.61]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 369CE19C51 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 95069 invoked by uid 66); 1 Mar 2004 17:05:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 19159 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:01:54 -0000 Received: from gic.mteege.de (HELO mteege.de) (192.168.153.10) by 0 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:01:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 39046 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2004 17:01:53 -0000 Received: from loco.mteege.de (HELO loco) (192.168.153.22) by 0 with SMTP; 1 Mar 2004 17:01:53 -0000 Message-ID: <84184c6c418797592330467960962e7b@mteege.de> From: Matthias Teege To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] a sure easy way to try out kernel stuff In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:01:07 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon Mar 1 16:41:47 GMT 2004, mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca wrote: > plan9-certified hardware unless you can use it as terminals, which we Small terminal would be cool. Matthias From jbarham@jbarham.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:07 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 02:22:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21378 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 02:22:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21374 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:22:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:22:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8318019DA3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8D2B219BEC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:22:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A2C7719C81; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 72E5719B97 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW003MYQK92B@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:14:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW00M8ZQK9Z3@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:14:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from hpn5415 (h24-87-250-11.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.250.11]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0HTW00JAFQK9LN@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:14:33 -0700 (MST) From: "John E. Barham" Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <041d01c3ffb0$a2c8a010$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> <90923238-6AF5-11D8-829B-003065E1714E@corpus-callosum.com> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:14:20 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > If for some reason you can't go with a Plan 9 solution, you might want > to check out The Handle System (http://www.handle.net/). Come to think > of it, adding hdl support to Plan 9 might be a nice project on it's > own. Well, at this point using Plan 9 is really not feasible since we already have a substantial production system in place w/ dependencies that Plan 9 doesn't provide. The Handle System looks pretty close to what we need. My major concern would be that it runs on Java (e.g., that "What do I do if I get a Java out-of-memory error?" is a FAQ does not inspire confidence...) John From rog@vitanuova.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 02:25:42 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21508 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 02:25:42 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21504 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:25:41 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:25:41 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 38B4719AD7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 483C7199B3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:25:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 81A1319CB4; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from rapido.vitanuova.com (unknown [62.254.170.97]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BF3C119B97 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:23:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: rog@vitanuova.com In-Reply-To: <200403011156.i21Bu1Mr065527@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:29:18 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Do you think limbo is better for learning/teaching parallel programming > ideas than C+rfork? having been through a few years of doing C programming workshops, i'd love to use Limbo as a teaching language. parallel programming is not the only reason (although it's a good one); just the overall cleanliness, the general modularity (no sprawling class hierarchy to deal with), and the straightforward syntax. From jbarham@jbarham.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 02:32:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22010 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 02:32:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22006 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:32:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:32:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 35B1E19DE1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE26519B56; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:32:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6861219AAA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 54BAE19B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW0070WR6L7Y@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:27:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml1so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.145]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW0054VR6L9L@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:27:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from hpn5415 (h24-87-250-11.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.250.11]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0HTW00IL8R6KFF@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 10:27:57 -0700 (MST) From: "John E. Barham" Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <043401c3ffb2$7ff48a20$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> <5eb036eb621fc8ca01d2b10665ad4e7d@plan9.ucalgary.ca> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:27:40 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > It's not that you can't do it in Lunix -- look at Globus' Replica > Location Service or MDS (Metasomething Discovery Service, they keep > changing the name) for just a few of the options for handling > replication, there are others specifically tailored to clusters too. Look interesting. It would be nice to avoid reinventing another wheel... > They are all crufty, don't play well with each other, require their > own clients and a pain in the proverbial to administer, but that's a > consequence of the multiple layers of abstraction they're built > upon to avoid admitting that UNIX simply lacks a decent > mechanism for importing remote resources. Yeah, the major disadvantage vis a vis Plan 9 is that they still requirement integration w/ our client software. > Binding remote exports in a union directory is so trivial in Plan 9 > that it's really a non-issue (you'll spend much more time tracking > which files are stored where, especially if they move). The show > stoppers are the clients -- what will you be using on the client side? Our clients operating systems are OS X, Windows and Linux. Client-side languages are C/C++ and Python. > Will you require users to be running Plan 9 to access the service, or > are you prepared to spend some time developing a way to bring it to > their environment (by, say, implementing a 9p client suitable for the > task, something like v9fs)... At this point nobody is running Plan 9, and there are too many dependencies client-side to consider P9 there. But running P9 on the file servers and headless image processing nodes (Mac G5s, BTW) might be worth considering at some point. John From matt@proweb.co.uk Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 02:35:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22183 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 02:35:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22179 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:35:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:35:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D91DC19CCA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4C9919AAA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:35:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 14EE819AAA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from juice.thebigchoice.com (cpc1-nott2-3-0-cust18.nott.cable.ntl.com [80.4.204.18]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B562119AD7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:34:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33c750f587189dcfaf9b67aa46ab0365@juice.thebigchoice.com> From: matt@proweb.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux In-Reply-To: <043401c3ffb2$7ff48a20$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:37:18 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.9 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: ** I have quite a bit of 9p (client & server) done in python if that interests anyone m From viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 03:05:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23983 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 03:05:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23979 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 03:05:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 03:05:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7753519BCE; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3E4DA19C27; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:05:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B496C19BEC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.linux.org.uk (parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk [195.92.249.252]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E03119BCC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from viro by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 4.22) id 1AxrmK-00044t-91 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:04:32 +0000 From: viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301180432.GN16357@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> References: <180eecfedf4d332edb744c24b27bc9ed@proxima.alt.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <180eecfedf4d332edb744c24b27bc9ed@proxima.alt.za> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:04:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 06:23:33PM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote: > No ways, it's a mismatch. Torvalds just organically grew an OS from > Minix, for the Intel architecture. The Great Barrier Reef likewise > grew organically, but is unlikely to be recommended as the dam wall > for the Yellow River. Oh, for crying out loud... Have you ever read either kernel? Yes or no? Or Plan 9 one, for that matter... From jas@corpus-callosum.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 03:27:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25812 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 03:27:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25808 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 03:27:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 03:27:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3648919DE1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5208A19B58; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:27:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7C68C19B56; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from gate.corpus-callosum.com (ip-216-36-98-130.dsl.chi.megapath.net [216.36.98.130]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6ECA519C65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (codex [10.0.1.8]) by gate.corpus-callosum.com (8.12.6/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i21IQ8fK081229 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:26:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jas@corpus-callosum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <041d01c3ffb0$a2c8a010$6539a8c0@hpn5415> References: <029c01c3fefe$95f0a430$6539a8c0@hpn5415> <90923238-6AF5-11D8-829B-003065E1714E@corpus-callosum.com> <041d01c3ffb0$a2c8a010$6539a8c0@hpn5415> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeff Sickel Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:26:03 -0600 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mar 1, 2004, at 11:14 AM, John E. Barham wrote: > > The Handle System looks pretty close to what we need. My major concern > would be that it runs on Java (e.g., that "What do I do if I get a Java > out-of-memory error?" is a FAQ does not inspire confidence...) Yikes, CNRI went all Java with the Handle System server software--at least the client libraries are still C. I remember early versions that were Python based, but alas they too have been lulled into Java on the server. It seems that CNRI has slowly been purging itself of all the Python source that had been developed there (could be one of the reasons Guido lef). From taj.khattra@pobox.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:03:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 28204 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:03:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28200 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:03:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:03:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6EC5C19CD2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F26B319C18; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:03:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C7B1919C65; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2021119C18 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([142.179.32.16]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040301190203.GIXH22284.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@localhost.localdomain> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:02:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 18731 invoked by uid 500); 1 Mar 2004 19:02:15 -0000 From: Taj Khattra To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301190215.GA18554@localhost.localdomain> References: <200403010934.i219YNhh064852@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403010934.i219YNhh064852@adat.davidashen.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:02:15 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Factory in Java is a simple concept, one more level of indirection. almost every concept in computing is about one or more levels of indirection. > It is built to provide a cleaner and smaller alternative to C++; yes, but that's not saying much - almost every language in existence provides a cleaner and smaller alternative to c++. > it offers very few concepts to learn i guess that's why the language spec alone is a svelte 500 pages. > -- and the extensive libraries are not meant > to learn -- there are javadocs for them. The core language and system not meant to learn? do javadocs have an ESP mechanism built into them? > Parallel programming in Java is easy and natural, as easy and natural > as in other language or system or even easier, dare I say it. You > just use threads, and use basic language features, such as variable > scopes, to have shared and private thread resources. No additional > flags and bits to remember; everything is easy and straightforward. no it isn't. it's nowhere near as easy and natural as the limbo, alef, erlang etc. model for concurrent programming. otoh, once you get used to it, everything looks easy and straightforward. > I think that the major objection against Java is its closedness, no, that's the major objection only for a few groups. From jbarham@jbarham.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:10:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 28981 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:10:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28977 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:10:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:10:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 19CD219D5F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9116319E21; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:10:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A6B0419C80; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B123819C56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW00CHDVJKPY@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:02:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HTW00KZ2VJJG1@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:02:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from hpn5415 (h24-87-250-11.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.250.11]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0HTW0019KVJJYC@l-daemon> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:02:07 -0700 (MST) From: "John E. Barham" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <052e01c3ffbf$a42a0700$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [9fans] VMware & Plan 9 on Dell Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:01:44 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I've ordered a Dell 5100 laptop (2.8 GHz P4, 512 MB RAM). XP is my default environment but I'll probably be running Mandrake Linux under VMware as well. Any reason why I can't run Plan 9 (although not necessarily concurrently w/ Mandrake) under VMware too? From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:11 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:19:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 29821 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:19:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29817 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:19:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:19:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6B62B19DC7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6AA9519C80; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:19:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4FE2819C80; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8F00A19BE1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21JFwki068108 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:15:58 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21JFw0P068107 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:15:58 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403011915.i21JFw0P068107@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040301190215.GA18554@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:15:58 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > Factory in Java is a simple concept, one more level of indirection. > > almost every concept in computing is about one or more levels of > indirection. Most concepts are more levels of indirections than one. > > > It is built to provide a cleaner and smaller alternative to C++; > > yes, but that's not saying much - almost every language in existence provides > a cleaner and smaller alternative to c++. Not every language is built to provide a smaller and cleaner alternative to a successful one, and is successful. I would be glad to see limbo or Alef widely used. They are not. > > > it offers very few concepts to learn > > i guess that's why the language spec alone is a svelte 500 pages. No. It is because the spec is written by people who come from culture of detailed specifications; and it is because a part of the specification is dedicated to binary compatibility, which few other languages provide. Still yet, the specification for Java, 504 pages, is SMALLER than specification for ANSI/ISO C, which 554 pages. > > -- and the extensive libraries are not meant to learn -- there are javadocs > > for them. The core language and system > > not meant to learn? do javadocs have an ESP mechanism built into them? I do not know what is ESP. > > > Parallel programming in Java is easy and natural, as easy and natural > > as in other language or system or even easier, dare I say it. You > > just use threads, and use basic language features, such as variable > > scopes, to have shared and private thread resources. No additional > > flags and bits to remember; everything is easy and straightforward. > > no it isn't. it's nowhere near as easy and natural as the limbo, alef, > erlang etc. model for concurrent programming. otoh, once you get used > to it, everything looks easy and straightforward. I wrote many thousands lines of code in C, Java, Perl, Scheme and Oberon. I used to do parallel programming in Modula-2. Parallel programming in model is natural and straightforward, and it is an achievement of language designers to come up with the model. It is strange how often other systems are criticized for various features on this list. Is it a part of plan9 culture? Is there a garbage-collecting language with concepts for parallel programming born in Plan9 environment which can be used with Plan9 to try out? David From salomo3@cooper.edu Tue Mar 2 10:03:11 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:23:18 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30089 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:23:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30084 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:23:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:23:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6F05719D77; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9FDBC19D48; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:23:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7E9FB19CCE; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (wish.cooper.edu [199.98.16.74]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7BAD319BEC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix, from userid 94) id 3DE363939; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id BC1613937 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from verb.ee.cooper.edu ([199.98.20.228]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user salomo3) by wish.cooper.edu with HTTP; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:13:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4609.199.98.20.228.1078168427.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c3fddf$72cc45b0$2bdcfea9@blue>, <00c801c3fdff$414b7d60$26fea8c0@SOMA> Subject: Re: [9fans] Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: "Joel Salomon" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:13:47 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Douglas A. Gwyn said: > (Whose "Law" was it that said that file storage always > expands to fill whatever disk resources are available? > The same thing seems to apply to CPU cycles.) I've seen it quoted: "Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away." Is interesting to look at various open-source projects and see which ones get larger & slower with newer versions (gcc, KDE, linux gets larger, but if Linus is to be believed, they *are* getting faster) and those that *decrease* in size -- any examples, anyone? Gnome, I *think*, but that's just because they started of with infinite bloat, nowhere to go but smaller/faster ;-) --Joel From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Mar 2 10:03:11 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:30:59 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30368 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:30:59 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30364 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:30:59 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:30:59 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C5CF619DFA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7139A19D48; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6A57A19D58; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9-2.ucalgary.ca (fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.7.68]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 43B1619D75 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:29:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5b98fb3f6c9729bb1d0545547dd1a572@plan9.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] VMware & Plan 9 on Dell From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: <052e01c3ffbf$a42a0700$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:29:41 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > I've ordered a Dell 5100 laptop (2.8 GHz P4, 512 MB RAM). XP is my default > environment but I'll probably be running Mandrake Linux under VMware as > well. Any reason why I can't run Plan 9 (although not necessarily > concurrently w/ Mandrake) under VMware too? besides the expensive license or preference for "free" alternatives -- no. you may have to install from the cd instead of using the vmware image. people have reported problems with 4.x and the vmware image. installing p9 from the cd should be fine. i'm using p9 daily as a terminal running under vmware 3.x. the speed is very reasonable when running locally, with cfs it's acceptable when running over dsl lines. andrey From salomo3@cooper.edu Tue Mar 2 10:03:11 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:32:18 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30458 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:32:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30454 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:32:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:32:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4FADD19E17; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D33A19CF1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:32:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2F9C419DE8; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (wish.cooper.edu [199.98.16.74]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36F3A19BEC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix, from userid 94) id 529AE393A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D57443937 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from verb.ee.cooper.edu ([199.98.20.228]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user salomo3) by wish.cooper.edu with HTTP; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4617.199.98.20.228.1078168977.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> In-Reply-To: <200403011915.i21JFw0P068107@adat.davidashen.net> References: <20040301190215.GA18554@localhost.localdomain> <200403011915.i21JFw0P068107@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: "Joel Salomon" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:22:57 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: David Tolpin said: > I do not know what is ESP. Extra-Sensory Preception i.e. psychic powers. > Is there a garbage-collecting > language with concepts for parallel programming born in Plan9 environment > which can be used with Plan9 to try out? > Limbo/Inferno has been mentioned in this thread. Alef is dead, and cannot be brought back (licencing issues with SGI iirc) -- was it GC, though? Then there's Newsqueak, but I think that's just a proof-of-concept toy, and not very useable. But limbo is alive and available, and can be tried out under Windows, plan9, linux, mac (I think). --Joel From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:11 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 04:46:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31256 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 04:46:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31252 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 04:46:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 04:46:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 168D919D5F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C54119C65; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:46:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 427F019CF1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 796D719C65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21Jh1ki068204 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:43:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21Jh12q068203 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:43:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403011943.i21Jh12q068203@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <4617.199.98.20.228.1078168977.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:43:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > I do not know what is ESP. > > Extra-Sensory Preception i.e. psychic powers. No javadoc does not have ESP. But one can always browse the documentation and see what interfaces are available. The javadoc generated documentation is hyperlinked in its basic format, which is very useful too. > But limbo is alive and available, and can be tried out under Windows, > plan9, linux, mac (I think). Yes, I have Inferno installed under FreeBSD. The problem with limbo for me is that it is much more 'a box in a box' than Java. This is not a language available in Plan 9. It is a language of Inferno, a different system that happens to have common roots with Plan 9. And, under FreeBSD, I cannot type in anything but English (that is, I need Russian, Armenian and Hebrew keyboard input on daily basis) without patching the kernel, I think. I am not saying I cannot live without limbo/Java/whatever. I am very happy with C, I've just compiled SCM under Plan9 and am going to bring system interfaces in, and there is hugs ported. But I would love to see something like limbo among basic tools of Plan9. Or like Java. Or, even better, both. And compare how good they go in the same environment. David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 05:30:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1415 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 05:30:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1411 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 05:30:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 05:30:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A0A6619DC1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE72E19DC7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:15 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4086019B57; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C8DBD19B60 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21KRbki068425 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:27:37 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21KRbXZ068424 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:27:37 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012027.i21KRbXZ068424@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Subject: [9fans] indenting source? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:27:37 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Hi, many sources in libc are written with four characters indent. What editor have they been written with? sam is rather incovenient to input text with indents other than one tab, or am I missing something? David From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 05:38:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1971 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 05:38:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1967 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 05:38:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 05:38:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 1D54C19E30; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2227719DFA; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:38:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2A17B19DE1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9-2.ucalgary.ca (fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca [136.159.7.68]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 050DB19B57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:37:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9593ae2174b94077e514cccc76fa050b@plan9.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: andrey mirtchovski In-Reply-To: <200403012027.i21KRbXZ068424@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:37:50 -0700 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Hi, > > many sources in libc are written with four characters indent. What > editor have they been written with? sam is rather incovenient to > input text with indents other than one tab, or am I missing something? > > David which libraries are those? i haven't seen anything but tabs for indentation. if you edit using acme(1) you can set $tabstop to whatever you like, but the source will still have tabs. andrey From rog@vitanuova.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 05:48:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 2474 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 05:48:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2470 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 05:48:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 05:48:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 00AD319E21; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6945819C59; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 387FA19E12; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from rapido.vitanuova.com (unknown [62.254.170.97]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5365719C51 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:47:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: rog@vitanuova.com In-Reply-To: <200403012027.i21KRbXZ068424@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:52:40 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > many sources in libc are written with four characters indent. % cd /sys/src/libc % grep '^ +[^*]' */*.c gives just the following lines of code for me: port/pow.c: zreturn: port/strtoul.c: if(base<2 || 36; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21KkEki068516 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:46:14 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21KkE3w068515 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:46:14 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012046.i21KkE3w068515@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <9593ae2174b94077e514cccc76fa050b@plan9.ucalgary.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:46:14 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > many sources in libc are written with four characters indent. What > > editor have they been written with? sam is rather incovenient to > > input text with indents other than one tab, or am I missing something? > > > > David > > which libraries are those? i haven't seen anything but tabs for > indentation. > > if you edit using acme(1) you can set $tabstop to whatever you like, > but the source will still have tabs. You are right. There are tabs there. I just cat /sys/src/libc/port/abs.c and saw 4 positions indent in term. Under examination, there are tabs there, and they show as 8 characters indents in sam. Can it be controlled somehow in window? From plan9fans@ntlworld.nospam.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 05:50:18 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 2554 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 05:50:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2550 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 05:50:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 05:50:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6C18219E12; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6933819A9C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 05A7319C51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:49:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 575F619C59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from spindrift ([81.111.117.88]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with SMTP id <20040301204749.EIQK15439.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@spindrift> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:47:49 +0000 Message-ID: <002d01c3ffce$60665190$58756f51@ntlworld.com> From: "Steve Simon" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <200402290104.i1T14kCr049567@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [9fans] iTuner Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:47:11 -0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Had a look at the iTuner - is it really $400? Thats expensive for a mini ITX these days (or am I being Naive?). -Steve From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 05:54:24 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 2746 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 05:54:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2741 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 05:54:24 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 05:54:24 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6184E19D5F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A550119E36; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:54:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0F3DE19D5F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C5B5619E21 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21Krob5029007 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:53:50 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay1.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21Kropk025120 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:53:50 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21KrofQ011722 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:53:50 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <002d01c3ffce$60665190$58756f51@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:53:49 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Steve Simon wrote: > Had a look at the iTuner - is it really $400? Thats expensive for a > mini ITX these days (or am I being Naive?). naive. Yeah the mini itx is cheap. Wrap it up in reasonable sheet metal, with that expenso 12V adapter supply, and add in the other junk, and ca. $400 is about what you'll pay from anyone. It's on the low end. Check out those oh-so-fancy british boxes with no fan and brushed metal -- $1200. ron From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:02:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3023 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:02:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3019 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:02:33 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:02:33 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 66BEA19A1C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D715E19A14; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:02:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 160CD19E2D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B9DA019A9C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:03:26 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >>oh-so-fancy british boxes with no fan and brushed metal -- $1200. they're for the export market. From dfawcus@cisco.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:12 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:08:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3253 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:08:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3249 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:08:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:08:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0077B19E38; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 70E4C19E12; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DFB2E19A31; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 80CC819E11 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2004 13:07:25 -0800 Received: from cisco.com (edinburgh.cisco.com [144.254.112.76]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i21L6u0a014347 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:06:56 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dfawcus@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) id VAA26018 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:07:20 GMT From: Derek Fawcus To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> References: <4617.199.98.20.228.1078168977.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> <200403011943.i21Jh12q068203@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200403011943.i21Jh12q068203@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:43:01PM +0400 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:07:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:43:01PM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > Yes, I have Inferno installed under FreeBSD. The problem with limbo > for me is that it is much more 'a box in a box' than Java. But wasn't that supposed to be the aim of Java? An identical virtual machine running on all systems, such that code could be written once? At least in concept, then inferno/limbo would seem to be "java done right". DF From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:14:35 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3422 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:14:35 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3418 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:14:35 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:14:35 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4D45B19E69; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0422819E4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:14:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 269B119A31; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6E91B19DC1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:13:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-aeavkhztwmgklzzvytgahqwosz" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:15:13 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-aeavkhztwmgklzzvytgahqwosz Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you're telling me. nevertheless, there is more that could and no doubt will be done to make it less obtrusive and more intrusive. --upas-aeavkhztwmgklzzvytgahqwosz Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Mon Mar 1 21:08:23 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BFD7919E42; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F0C5119E11; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:08:06 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DFB2E19A31; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 80CC819E11 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2004 13:07:25 -0800 Received: from cisco.com (edinburgh.cisco.com [144.254.112.76]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i21L6u0a014347 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:06:56 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dfawcus@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) id VAA26018 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:07:20 GMT From: Derek Fawcus To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> References: <4617.199.98.20.228.1078168977.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> <200403011943.i21Jh12q068203@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200403011943.i21Jh12q068203@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:43:01PM +0400 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:07:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:43:01PM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > Yes, I have Inferno installed under FreeBSD. The problem with limbo > for me is that it is much more 'a box in a box' than Java. But wasn't that supposed to be the aim of Java? An identical virtual machine running on all systems, such that code could be written once? At least in concept, then inferno/limbo would seem to be "java done right". DF --upas-aeavkhztwmgklzzvytgahqwosz-- From rog@vitanuova.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:15:22 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3470 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:15:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3466 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:15:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:15:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C464119E66; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F412019E4E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:15:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DC41F19E4E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from rapido.vitanuova.com (unknown [62.254.170.97]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8F45919E49 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:14:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <69a285530f09c7b04a4293cb7a50c390@vitanuova.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: rog@vitanuova.com In-Reply-To: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:20:12 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > But wasn't that supposed to be the aim of Java? An identical virtual > machine running on all systems, such that code could be written once? > > At least in concept, then inferno/limbo would seem to be "java done right". i think the real problem people have with it is the visual one: there really is a box (window) on screen that holds all your inferno windows. the new inferno window manager allows one to break out of this box, in principle (i've done such a thing for rio, except later changes broke it; charles suggested a fix which i should implement sometime). under other systems, it would need a change in the draw device to allow multiple windows (it's not entirely clear what the base abstraction should be), but that shouldn't be too hard, it's just setting the time aside to do it! From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:15:36 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3485 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:15:36 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3481 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:15:36 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:15:36 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 978C219E78; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EC50D19E36; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:15:20 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 07C1D19E49; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 712E619DC1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21LCXki068638 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:12:33 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21LCX5E068637 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:12:33 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012112.i21LCX5E068637@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:12:33 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:43:01PM +0400, David Tolpin wrote: > > Yes, I have Inferno installed under FreeBSD. The problem with limbo > > for me is that it is much more 'a box in a box' than Java. > > But wasn't that supposed to be the aim of Java? An identical virtual > machine running on all systems, such that code could be written once? > > At least in concept, then inferno/limbo would seem to be "java done right". Java is done right in concept. In reality, inferno is no more right than Java. Unfortunately. I can do system programming and command-line apps with Java. How am I supposed with Inferno on FreeBSD to do that? David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:27:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3986 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:27:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3981 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:27:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:27:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 34FDE19E50; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DBE1419B8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EB7ED19E10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ED3C419B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21LO1ki068718 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21LO1IS068717 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <002d01c3ffce$60665190$58756f51@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Had a look at the iTuner? How am I supposed to install plan9 on iTuner -- copy it to CF elsewhere? I'm sorry if it is a stupid question. David From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:29:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4074 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:29:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4070 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:29:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:29:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6C6B819E5B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5508D19E49; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:29:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7095319E10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D913B19B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <56bab4eff0cccaa8e93a41ca587306f7@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:30:39 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit that's what i've done before with other devices, using either Plan 9 or Inferno on an existing device to prepare the CF for the new device. --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Mon Mar 1 21:27:14 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2FF1B19E29; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0C34919B8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:06 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EB7ED19E10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ED3C419B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21LO1ki068718 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21LO1IS068717 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <002d01c3ffce$60665190$58756f51@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Had a look at the iTuner? How am I supposed to install plan9 on iTuner -- copy it to CF elsewhere? I'm sorry if it is a stupid question. David --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue-- From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:41:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4674 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:41:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4670 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:41:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:41:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9DD8F19E4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 33F0819E3F; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:41:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D69BF19DC7; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 85C1419C80 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LeOb5010301 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:27 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LeNdc010491 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:24 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LeNfQ014115 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:23 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:23 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, David Tolpin wrote: > How am I supposed to install plan9 on iTuner -- > copy it to CF elsewhere? I'm sorry if it is a > stupid question. yeah, you make a cf bootable just as you would an ide drive. ron From bwc@borf.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:42:21 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4736 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:42:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4732 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:42:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:42:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5DA3419E5E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 23DD919E4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:42:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D620719E36; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from edsac.borf.com (borf.com [209.179.94.84]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EB16F19B25 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:41:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: Brantley Coile To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <56bab4eff0cccaa8e93a41ca587306f7@terzarima.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-dsethzhajhnixggwgcxrpudnjz" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:38:51 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-dsethzhajhnixggwgcxrpudnjz Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of sticking something on a CF, what are you guys using to do this? I'm just now fiddling with the usb stuff to talk to my CF reader. Brantley --upas-dsethzhajhnixggwgcxrpudnjz Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay.borf.com ([205.185.197.204]) by edsac; Mon Mar 1 16:29:28 EST 2004 Received: from [130.203.4.6] by borf.com ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:25:39 -0400 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E0FB519E51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7808D19E29; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:29:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7095319E10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D913B19B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <56bab4eff0cccaa8e93a41ca587306f7@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:30:39 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit that's what i've done before with other devices, using either Plan 9 or Inferno on an existing device to prepare the CF for the new device. --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Mon Mar 1 21:27:14 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2FF1B19E29; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0C34919B8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:06 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EB7ED19E10; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ED3C419B56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i21LO1ki068718 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i21LO1IS068717 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403012124.i21LO1IS068717@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <002d01c3ffce$60665190$58756f51@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:24:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Had a look at the iTuner? How am I supposed to install plan9 on iTuner -- copy it to CF elsewhere? I'm sorry if it is a stupid question. David --upas-qidjmxcjbgvwxrncpmwfucpaue-- --upas-dsethzhajhnixggwgcxrpudnjz-- From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:13 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 06:44:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4840 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 06:44:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4835 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 06:44:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 06:44:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DA6DC19E4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 832C819E4C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:44:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A027519E5E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7CF1819E49 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGb5011234 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay1.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGpk018811 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGfQ014271 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:15 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Brantley Coile wrote: > Speaking of sticking something on a CF, what are you > guys using to do this? I'm just now fiddling with > the usb stuff to talk to my CF reader. Linux ... ron From bwc@borf.com Tue Mar 2 10:03:14 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 07:52:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 8023 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 07:52:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8019 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 07:52:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 07:52:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A1A7A19E51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7DAFD19DC1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:52:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B16A819DC1; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from edsac.borf.com (borf.com [209.179.94.84]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C58319B18 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:51:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2ffc0f359bf00f823758b54b22cd170a@borf.com> From: Brantley Coile To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-cdwjhjmchcdgwirawaskwlpodb" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:44:59 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-cdwjhjmchcdgwirawaskwlpodb Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. I need to move this operation to Plan 9. Is it just a matter of writing SCSI commands into the ep1data and reading the responses from ep2data? Brantley --upas-cdwjhjmchcdgwirawaskwlpodb Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay.borf.com ([205.185.197.204]) by edsac; Mon Mar 1 16:44:48 EST 2004 Received: from [130.203.4.6] by borf.com ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:40:37 -0400 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9F3CF19E67; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24BCD19E49; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:44:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A027519E5E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7CF1819E49 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGb5011234 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay1.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGpk018811 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i21LhGfQ014271 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:16 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:43:15 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Brantley Coile wrote: > Speaking of sticking something on a CF, what are you > guys using to do this? I'm just now fiddling with > the usb stuff to talk to my CF reader. Linux ... ron --upas-cdwjhjmchcdgwirawaskwlpodb-- From geoff@collyer.net Tue Mar 2 10:03:14 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 08:09:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 8761 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 08:09:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8757 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 08:09:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 08:09:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EE44519B0A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EA3419E2D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:09:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5D7EA19DC0; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (dnspac16.collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CEE9F19B0A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:08:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5f2452b782334756dee75e28d677f1b5@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:08:23 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I boot Plan 9 off floppy to initialise the CF on an IDE interface. From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 10:03:14 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 09:22:43 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 13400 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 09:22:42 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13165 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 09:20:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 09:20:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9D42319E5D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8444F19CBB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:20:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D215C19C8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6FCC119E2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i220JQb5028396 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:19:27 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay1.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i220JQpk028931 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:19:26 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i220JQfQ021859 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:19:26 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] server configuration In-Reply-To: <1ea06dc44ac1c0de11fec6300f6bfb13@plan9.bell-labs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:19:26 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: well I just fixed my problem with server configuration. I was unable to drawterm from my linux laptop to my plan 9 laptop. Error was the obscure '?AS: protocol botch: file does not exist' which is not so obvious when you can't find any files that don't exist :-) Turns out the file /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567 was a directory, more or less, except it was a file and was full of junk -- kind of looked like it had the contents of /rc/bin/service.auth in the file tcp567. Clearly not what was intended. Of course it has to have #!/bin/rc /bin/auth/authsrv $3 Don't know how this one got smashed. Happy now, can cpu again to my T21. ron From matt@proweb.co.uk Tue Mar 2 10:03:15 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 09:58:25 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 16876 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 09:58:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16872 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 09:58:24 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 09:58:24 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E827719DF0; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0233D19CBB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:58:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B5FB419CBB; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from juice.thebigchoice.com (cpc1-nott2-3-0-cust18.nott.cable.ntl.com [80.4.204.18]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 527DD19B43 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:57:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: matt@proweb.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Java Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:59:33 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Inferno can't do administration in the native OS? Poppycock! emu -d -r'/home/www/logs' '/usr/matt/process_logs.dis' (I think that's the correct syntax, I don't have one at hand to test but I did used to run it like that) Inferno is perfectly capable of running as a single program You can even put it in inetd if you were kinky enough or just run it as it's own listener. m From r@geekmail.cc Tue Mar 2 11:14:44 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 10:42:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 20976 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 10:42:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20972 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 10:42:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 10:42:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0A95319E6D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6650E19E4A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:42:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A1D4519E2D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-239-45-4.google.com (216-239-45-4.google.com [216.239.45.4]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 33F3C19CBB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from stinkhorn.corp.google.com (stinkhorn.corp.google.com [172.24.64.199]) by 216-239-45-4.google.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i221erX6015172 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:40:53 -0800 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: "rob pike, esq." In-Reply-To: <7e3049782c9b96bdd8a5ba0caf4e4b38@plan9.escet.urjc.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:40:53 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Passing a fn pointer through > a pointer, which IMHO he missed, of course is. IMHO, he should > read the source of acme. I did learn a lot by doing so (after decades > of doing concurrent programs). philw was sitting at the next terminal when i wrote that code, which was originally in alef. i showed it to him and he was surprised that it even worked. no faith in his own language. but the language worked and so did the program. -rob From boyd@insultant.net Tue Mar 2 11:56:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 11:17:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 24195 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 11:17:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24190 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 11:17:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 11:17:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 279B419E2D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 44C0719E69; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:17:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4721519E5D; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams003.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n03.valueweb.net [216.219.253.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CB54719E51 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([81.64.132.103]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <319554-25629>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:15:09 -0500 Message-ID: <011b01c3fffc$0a802e80$67844051@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <200403012027.i21KRbXZ068424@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:13:59 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: From: "David Tolpin" > editor have they been written with? sam is rather incovenient to > input text with indents other than one tab, or am I missing something? pauvre cherie From brucee@chunder.com Tue Mar 2 11:56:08 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 11:28:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25047 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 11:28:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25043 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 11:28:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 11:28:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A18CF19E73; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B1F4419E51; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:28:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4061519C9B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from wmail.atlantic.net (wmail.atlantic.net [209.208.0.84]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 259F219E51 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9736 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 02:27:30 -0000 Received: from cpe-203-51-68-173.nsw.bigpond.net.au (HELO cc77109e) (203.51.68.173) by wmail.atlantic.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 02:27:30 -0000 Message-ID: <049401c3fffe$14023190$8201a8c0@cc77109e> From: "Bruce Ellis" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Organization: www.chunder.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [9fans] need a microdrive? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:02:50 +1100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: novel way to get a microdrive ... http://www.studio2f.com/archives/000438.php From boyd@insultant.net Tue Mar 2 11:56:09 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 11:49:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 26707 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 11:49:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26703 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 11:49:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 11:49:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4CD1019B74; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A6FD619E7C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EBB2319E76; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ams002.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n02.valueweb.net [216.219.253.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B89C719E74 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from SOMA ([81.64.132.103]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with SMTP id <319753-10375>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:47:37 -0500 Message-ID: <014401c40000$916ee360$67844051@SOMA> From: "boyd, rounin" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <200403012112.i21LCX5E068637@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:46:26 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: From: "David Tolpin" > Java is done right in concept. In reality, inferno is no more right > than Java. bullshit From salomo3@cooper.edu Tue Mar 2 12:49:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 11:57:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 27369 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 11:57:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27365 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 11:57:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 11:57:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0AE8E19DF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A199A19B12; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:57:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C0EF919DF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (wish.cooper.edu [199.98.16.74]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE6F619DF5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix, from userid 94) id 8387E393A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from wish.cooper.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by wish.cooper.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A77F3937 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from verb.ee.cooper.edu ([199.98.20.228]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user salomo3) by wish.cooper.edu with HTTP; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2659.199.98.20.228.1078195680.squirrel@wish.cooper.edu> In-Reply-To: <69a285530f09c7b04a4293cb7a50c390@vitanuova.com> References: <20040301210719.B10993@edinburgh.cisco.com> <69a285530f09c7b04a4293cb7a50c390@vitanuova.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: "Joel Salomon" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:48:00 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: rog@vitanuova.com said: > the new inferno window manager allows one to break out of this box, in > principle (i've done such a thing for rio, except later changes broke > it; charles suggested a fix which i should implement sometime). > Two questions about integrating inferno/limbo into plan9: 1) is there any way to make dis programs "runnable" like shell scripts are? eg %dis/charon rather than %emu /bin/dis/charon 2) could the inferno system be made to serve its /prog to the machine's /proc? this would blur the borders between the host plan9 and the inferno subsystem, which might be a good thing or a terrible idea. --Joel From martin@parvat.com Tue Mar 2 14:11:37 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:14:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1722 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:14:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1718 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:14:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:14:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9EC8B19B74; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1E99519B01; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:14:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5648B19B47; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.176]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 954A919AAA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.227.126.162] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ay1I0-0004Cy-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:13:52 +0100 Received: from [203.101.54.247] (helo=agni) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ay1Hy-0000Bz-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:13:51 +0100 From: Martin C.Atkins To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Distributed filesystems: Plan 9 vs. Linux Message-Id: <20040302094053.0e2f265a.martin@parvat.com> In-Reply-To: <33c750f587189dcfaf9b67aa46ab0365@juice.thebigchoice.com> References: <043401c3ffb2$7ff48a20$6539a8c0@hpn5415> <33c750f587189dcfaf9b67aa46ab0365@juice.thebigchoice.com> Organization: Parvat Infotech (Private) Limited X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:113a684b1fe18b05bb432fb0fae7a311 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:40:53 +0530 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:37:18 0000 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote: > I have quite a bit of 9p (client & server) done in python if that interests anyone > > m > I've got Russ' 9p Python code. It was very nice, but it would be interesting to see some other approaches to compare... Thanks, Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} From taj.khattra@pobox.com Tue Mar 2 14:11:37 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:22:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 2347 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:22:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2342 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:22:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:22:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2D2EB19BCC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4034C19B47; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:22:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 54B9B19BBC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AF8FB19B47 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([142.179.32.16]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040302042058.MZFO22898.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@localhost.localdomain> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:20:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 20879 invoked by uid 500); 2 Mar 2004 04:13:09 -0000 From: Taj Khattra To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040302041309.GA20695@localhost.localdomain> References: <000901c3ff18$950fe250$26fea8c0@SOMA> <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:13:09 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > in contrast to the quote above, in an ancient usenet article, > in the context of concurrent programming, i am reasonably certain that > rob made the observation that as a discipline, we can learn. he http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=ie=UTF-8&selm=13fi7tINNk1i%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU&rnum=1 > that seems to me to be a better quote to use. i like this line from todd proebsting: ``Concurrency models many applications better than objects, yet the world is mired in OO religion.'' of course, joe armstrong has been preaching this for many years too. From rvs@sun.com Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:35:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 3426 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:35:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3422 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:35:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:35:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E3EDD19BF5; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CA62E19B83; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:35:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 031B119B7A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6AFEF19991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i224YQ0J023836 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from submarine.sfbay.sun.com (submarine.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.78.138]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id i224YQXd002626 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rs76089@localhost) by submarine.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i224YQS01095 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:34:26 -0800 (PST) From: Roman Shaposhnick To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040302043425.GB1080@submarine> References: <000901c3ff18$950fe250$26fea8c0@SOMA> <757a63de546942340d005e0e4fcc471e@terzarima.net> <20040302041309.GA20695@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040302041309.GA20695@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:34:26 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: What do you guys think of OpenMP extension for C/C++ (http://www.openmp.org) ? Of course, it's nothing radical, but still being able to write: #pragma omp for for (i=0; i<1000; i++) { do_something; } and not having to worry about nuts'n'bolts of the implementation is pretty neat. Plus there's a bonus of worry-free synchronization (at least in it's simplest form of a barrier). I do realize, that OpenMP is mostly suited for a domain with short-lived fire-and-forget sort of threads, but still, the fact that it's integrated with the language should be appealing enough. Thanks, Roman. On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 08:13:09PM -0800, Taj Khattra wrote: > > in contrast to the quote above, in an ancient usenet article, > > in the context of concurrent programming, i am reasonably certain that > > rob made the observation that as a discipline, we can learn. he > > http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=ie=UTF-8&selm=13fi7tINNk1i%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU&rnum=1 > > > that seems to me to be a better quote to use. > > i like this line from todd proebsting: ``Concurrency models many > applications better than objects, yet the world is mired in OO > religion.'' of course, joe armstrong has been preaching this for > many years too. From vdharani@infernopark.com Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:43:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4163 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:43:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4159 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:43:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:43:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3349D19C4A; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6BE8619BCC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:43:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6881F19BCC; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ensim.rackshack.net (unknown [216.127.72.23]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFD6319AEF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from infernopark.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by ensim.rackshack.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i22782615761; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:08:02 -0500 Received: from 67.85.61.176 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vdharani@infernopark.com) by www.infernopark.com with HTTP; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:08:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32830.67.85.61.176.1078211282.squirrel@www.infernopark.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:08:02 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_NJABL_RELAY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * hi, >> Had a look at the iTuner - is it really $400? Thats expensive for a >> mini ITX these days (or am I being Naive?). > > naive. > > Yeah the mini itx is cheap. Wrap it up in reasonable sheet metal, with > that expenso 12V adapter supply, and add in the other junk, and ca. > $400 is about what you'll pay from anyone. It's on the low end. Check > out those oh-so-fancy british boxes with no fan and brushed metal -- > $1200. i decided to spend some money and build a system consisting of a couple of small machines and try some grid stuff. given that my budget is not too high (about $500 at best), i was thinking of linksys (wrt54g) or ituner box. though i like wrt54g, i am hesitating because a) i am not sure how easy it is to put inferno in it b) i am not sure if i can turn off the wifi part c) i cant do plan9 grid. now, i am leaning towards ituner stuff because, hopefully, i can try both plan9 grid and inferno grid. the board i prefer should be CPU/>=64MB/ethernet/VGA(?). i am thinking of 2+boards. how much would it cost with and without the box? and how easy or how tough is it to get the first kernel loaded? i think once i build and load the kernel, i can proceed from there. if someone can help me, please let me know. once i know the parts, i can order them. i like the ones i see in 9grid page and i will be happy if i can do a similar setup to play with. btw, wouldnt it be nice if 9fans (of similar interest) stick one model like ituner box? that way, we could have better device support eventually. any help appreciated. thanks dharani From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:48:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4596 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:48:43 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4572 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:48:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:48:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DF19D19C52; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DFD0219C2B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:48:13 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5D79F19C52; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AB9B519AEF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224l3b5019829 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:47:03 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224l3dc010181 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:47:03 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224l2fQ030940 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:47:02 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040302043425.GB1080@submarine> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:47:01 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Roman Shaposhnick wrote: > What do you guys think of OpenMP extension for C/C++ > (http://www.openmp.org) ? And to think I just ate. Too bad. Too bad! ron From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:50:18 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 4853 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:50:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4849 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:50:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:50:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E7D1C19C34; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 038A319B15; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:50:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 961E819B15; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 21DA819B17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224nnb5020080 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:49 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224nmdc010566; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:48 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224nmfQ031100; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:48 -0700 From: ron minnich To: vdharani@infernopark.com Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner In-Reply-To: <32830.67.85.61.176.1078211282.squirrel@www.infernopark.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:49:47 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 vdharani@infernopark.com wrote: > the board i prefer should be CPU/>=64MB/ethernet/VGA(?). i am thinking of > 2+boards. how much would it cost with and without the box? you need a PS per board. If you want to be compact you get those 12V PSes. They will cost you $129. Or get cheap PC power supplies for $20 each. But then it is a space hog. There are no good choices. You can save lotsa money but then you don't get something small. I have found small boxes for (believe it or not!) $12 with PS included that you could put the EPIA in. but they are ... ugly and big. > and how easy or how tough is it to get the first kernel loaded? i think > once i build and load the kernel, i can proceed from there. if someone can > help me, please let me know. once i know the parts, i can order them. It's just not hard. > btw, wouldnt it be nice if 9fans (of similar interest) stick one model > like ituner box? that way, we could have better device support > eventually. We'd still like to sell plan 9 boxes that just come up and work. It's meeting everyone's needs that is tough. ron From martin@parvat.com Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:52:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 5072 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:52:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5059 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:52:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:52:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 331DE19B8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C3A919B8E; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:52:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 515D219B15; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D6D9819B8E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.227.126.161] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ay1s6-0003U5-00; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:51:10 +0100 Received: from [203.101.54.247] (helo=agni) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ay1s5-0002Op-00; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:51:09 +0100 From: Martin C.Atkins To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: Linus Torvalds Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-Id: <20040302101812.35190293.martin@parvat.com> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Parvat Infotech (Private) Limited X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.4claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-debian-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:113a684b1fe18b05bb432fb0fae7a311 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:18:12 +0530 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 01:30:57 -0800 (PST) Linus Torvalds wrote: >... > The "clone()" system call in Linux just creates a new such "context of >... > The bits you can control the context copy with are: >... > CLONE_NEWNS /* New namespace group? */ >... Does this mean "namespace" in the Plan 9 sense? Is it implemented yet, or was this file written in the "future optimistic" tense? :-) BTW: the definition isn't listed in my man page for clone(2), or my Debian woody header files, however, see below... I heard that Al Viro was doing something in this area some time back, but don't know what happened to his work. (Sure enough, it does seem to do something in 2.4.24 - is this a "best kept secret"? If it works, why aren't we all using it?) Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 14:11:38 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 13:57:38 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 5787 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 13:57:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5723 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 13:57:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 13:57:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C2D3319C7C; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5F11F19C37; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:57:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3B15819BCF; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E5FC319B15 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224uhb5020323 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:43 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224uhdc011323; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:43 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i224ugfQ031571; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:42 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: Linus Torvalds Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040302101812.35190293.martin@parvat.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:56:41 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Martin C.Atkins wrote: > Does this mean "namespace" in the Plan 9 sense? Is it implemented > yet, or was this file written in the "future optimistic" tense? :-) in many ways. We exploit this new stuff for v9fs. It has allowed us to have private name space mounts on the 1024 node cluster. It's pretty nice. > I heard that Al Viro was doing something in this area some time > back, but don't know what happened to his work. (Sure enough, it > does seem to do something in 2.4.24 - is this a "best kept secret"? > If it works, why aren't we all using it?) It works. I don't know why we're not all using it. ron From 9nut@9netics.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 14:38:29 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 9908 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 14:38:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9900 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 14:38:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 14:38:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9CB4519BF5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B257619BA2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:38:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C1B1C19BA4; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.9netics.com (unknown [64.91.109.37]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E2B2119A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:37:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: 9nut@9netics.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:38:09 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > which reminds me of the sketch > in the Life of Brian: ``the people's liberation army of judea'', > ``the judean people's liberation army'', ... . splitters! "Judean People's Front" and "People's Front of Judea." Brilliantly funny! http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm From rvs@sun.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 14:54:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 11587 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 14:54:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 11583 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 14:54:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 14:54:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D4C2A19B39; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AB3DD19B39; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:54:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E8BBA19BA4; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 74BC919B26 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.155.42]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i225rFi5006037 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:53:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from submarine.sfbay.sun.com (submarine.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.78.138]) by sfbaymail2sca.sfbay.sun.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id i225rEXd019936 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rs76089@localhost) by submarine.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id i225rEs01148 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:53:14 -0800 (PST) From: Roman Shaposhnick To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel Message-ID: <20040302055314.GA1142@submarine> References: <20040302043425.GB1080@submarine> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:53:14 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 09:47:01PM -0700, ron minnich wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Roman Shaposhnick wrote: > > > What do you guys think of OpenMP extension for C/C++ > > (http://www.openmp.org) ? > > And to think I just ate. Hungry or not, what *do* you think ? Thanks, Roman. From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Mar 2 20:26:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 14:59:45 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12048 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 14:59:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12018 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 14:59:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 14:59:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D45D719C81; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE71119BA4; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:59:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6D92319BAE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (mailwasher.lanl.gov [192.16.0.25]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 301B319BA4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailwasher-b.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i225w8b5022742 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:58:08 -0700 Received: from ccs-mail.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i225w8dc018695 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:58:08 -0700 Received: from maxroach.lanl.gov (maxroach.lanl.gov [128.165.250.187]) by ccs-mail.lanl.gov (8.12.10/8.12.10/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id i225w8fQ001423 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:58:08 -0700 From: ron minnich To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <20040302055314.GA1142@submarine> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:58:07 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Roman Shaposhnick wrote: > > And to think I just ate. > > Hungry or not, what *do* you think ? openmp is a bad idea. ron From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:19 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 15:04:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12558 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 15:04:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12554 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 15:04:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 15:04:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 40FC219CAB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3383419C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:04:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 053A319C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1A30819BA4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2260mki070668 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:00:48 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i2260mYk070667 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:00:48 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020600.i2260mYk070667@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <011b01c3fffc$0a802e80$67844051@SOMA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:00:48 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > editor have they been written with? sam is rather incovenient to > > input text with indents other than one tab, or am I missing something? > > pauvre cherie > I don't know what is that 'cherie' that is poor, but please how can I make my text windows in rio show indents in increments of 8 for tabs, and not of 4? Please use English. David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 15:05:21 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 12708 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 15:05:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12704 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 15:05:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 15:05:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D0D0319CAA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EBE919CA6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:05:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7C0BB19CAA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 649F719BAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2262Oki070675 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:02:24 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i2262OJu070674 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:02:24 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020602.i2262OJu070674@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: <014401c40000$916ee360$67844051@SOMA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:02:24 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > From: "David Tolpin" > > Java is done right in concept. In reality, inferno is no more right > > than Java. > > bullshit In particular, what part of limbo in reality is better than Java in such a way that reminded you bull's excrements? David Tolpin From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 15:59:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 17961 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 15:59:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17948 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 15:59:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 15:59:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 94B1419BC8; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 96E6919BD9; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:59:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5C95E19BD6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CA33419BB9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i226tUki070927 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:55:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i226tUPh070926 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:55:30 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020655.i226tUPh070926@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:55:30 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > how can I make my text windows in rio show indents in increments of 8 > > for tabs, and not of 4? > > > % tabstops=4 In acme and samterm, it is tabstop, not tabstops. > is all sam needs to adjust to 4 spaces to the tab. > Acme does it by > default, but it also obeys $tabstops. Learn acme in preference to > sam, it will astonish you. Yes, I know how to use acme for editing, and had learned it before acme had been written. In 1991, I think. > I keep using sam by habit, and it seems to > me to be a bad habit. I don't think sam is a bad habit. It is a different editor, less integrated into Plan9/rio, but I use it not just in Plan 9. The question, however, was not how to do 4 spaces per tab in sam. It was the opposite. I was asking how to make window show 8 spaces per tab. I've looked into the sources. It turns out that I cannot do it for one window, I have to set tabstop and run rio. It can be obvious for you, but it was not for me, untill I looked at what /bin/window is. The code in acme.c appears to be copy'n'pasted from the same source as code in rio.c, with independent default value for maxtab. Why it is needed? Is acme supposed to run without rio? David Tolpin From 9nut@9netics.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:00:48 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 18113 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:00:48 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18109 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:00:48 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:00:48 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 89C5619C28; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8B3AF19BFE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:40 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7A75A19C26; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.9netics.com (unknown [64.91.109.37]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6B0C819BD6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a26f30be56f60f683a5f03e05cfc083@9netics.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] VMware & Plan 9 on Dell From: 9nut@9netics.com In-Reply-To: <052e01c3ffbf$a42a0700$6539a8c0@hpn5415> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:00:22 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > I've ordered a Dell 5100 laptop (2.8 GHz P4, 512 MB RAM). XP is my default > environment but I'll probably be running Mandrake Linux under VMware as > well. Any reason why I can't run Plan 9 (although not necessarily > concurrently w/ Mandrake) under VMware too? I have a similar setup (2.4GHz cpu) and routinely run Plan9 term on VMware 4.0. At times (during testing) I run another instance. As Andrey mentioned, will have to do a cd install with VMWare 4, and check previous posts regarding "legacy mode" for CD drive setting. From r@geekmail.cc Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:01:44 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 18215 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:01:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18211 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:01:44 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:01:44 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7C4D419CA6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AE78C19BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:01:36 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 214F119BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-239-45-4.google.com (216-239-45-4.google.com [216.239.45.4]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D64F419BFE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from stinkhorn.corp.google.com (stinkhorn.corp.google.com [172.24.64.199]) by 216-239-45-4.google.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2270rbk019506 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:00:53 -0800 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel From: "rob pike, esq." In-Reply-To: <20040302041309.GA20695@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:00:53 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing. -rob From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:02:03 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 18236 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:02:03 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18232 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:02:03 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:02:03 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0E0D719980; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7FF8F19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:01:47 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 68F1019BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D949819BD6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i226w3ki070942 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:58:03 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i226w3An070941 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:58:03 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020658.i226w3An070941@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:58:03 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > The Inferno/Java paper (somewhere on the web site, but likely also in > the Plan 9 distribution) covers it rather nicely. Google brings inexistent link. Object not found The object /inferno/infernojava.html does not exist on this server. I've found an article on similar subject, namely http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/rob/hotchips.html The only claim I have found is that reference counting + coloring is better than mark'n'sweep. Given that Java's GC is not mark'n'sweep for a long time already, and the performance problems related to memory management are insignificant since the release of HotSpot, are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? Besides, are there measured comparisons of Java and Limbo in the area of memory usage and GC performance? My experience with implementing GC in virtual machines is that reference-counting+graph coloring can easily result in slower execution than mark'n'sweep. David Tolpin From nemo@lsub.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:07:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 18864 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:07:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18860 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:07:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:07:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 6567A19BFE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1D2AC19BFE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:07:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B1FD619BEE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3EB8E19A12 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:06:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <200403020658.i226w3An070941@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:06:30 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? Sure, the language. Just try to write a program in both and compare. From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:11:25 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19266 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:11:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19262 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:11:24 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:11:24 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B91B319C7C; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6DD8C19C2B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:11:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CB1AC19C2B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6782419BEE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i22787ki071039 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i22787H3071038 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020708.i22787H3071038@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? > > Sure, the language. > Just try to write a program in both and compare. I did. Am I missing something? How closures are expressed in limbo? From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:14:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19517 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:14:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19513 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:14:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:14:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7816819CD2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 544FE19C7B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:14:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C4D8E19C37; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2A26E19C26 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:13:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c7e9500b91e41843971dcc981312e7f@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <5f2452b782334756dee75e28d677f1b5@collyer.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-njuqyrllutznefhvnuwaihfzwi" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:15:37 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-njuqyrllutznefhvnuwaihfzwi Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i used a PCMCIA to CF adapter --upas-njuqyrllutznefhvnuwaihfzwi Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Mon Mar 1 23:09:18 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A210519E30; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CAA3E19E17; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:09:06 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5D7EA19DC0; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (dnspac16.collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CEE9F19B0A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:08:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5f2452b782334756dee75e28d677f1b5@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:08:23 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: I boot Plan 9 off floppy to initialise the CF on an IDE interface. --upas-njuqyrllutznefhvnuwaihfzwi-- From nemo@lsub.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:20 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:15:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 19581 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:15:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19577 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:15:18 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:15:18 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 988FC19CE6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A9F0019CA8; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:15:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 515D219CA8; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A202019C7B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:14:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <58c9a09539806ad0e5d6c0b07b3c7c89@plan9.escet.urjc.es> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <200403020708.i22787H3071038@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-wnhsuxmevnxalosrzknrqrlrqq" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:14:33 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-wnhsuxmevnxalosrzknrqrlrqq Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You did for a real program? Or for a simple example? I started to feel the difference only after doing my first real limbo program. But just to tell you what I mean, I feel that limbo lacks those features that make Java a complex laguage, yet it retains those that make it easy to reuse code. That's arguable, of course. --upas-wnhsuxmevnxalosrzknrqrlrqq Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by aquamar; Tue Mar 2 08:11:29 MET 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EC08819C7D; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6DD8C19C2B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:11:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id CB1AC19C2B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6782419BEE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i22787ki071039 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i22787H3071038 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020708.i22787H3071038@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:07 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? > > Sure, the language. > Just try to write a program in both and compare. I did. Am I missing something? How closures are expressed in limbo? --upas-wnhsuxmevnxalosrzknrqrlrqq-- From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:33:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 21544 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:33:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21540 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:33:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:33:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2616519CC3; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24AE819C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7758019C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C62A619C40 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i227U2ki071219 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i227U1tg071218 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020730.i227U1tg071218@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <58c9a09539806ad0e5d6c0b07b3c7c89@plan9.escet.urjc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > But just to tell you what I mean, I feel that limbo lacks those > features that make Java a complex laguage, yet it retains > those that make it easy to reuse code. That's arguable, of course. But Java is a SIMPLER language than limbo. It has fewer basic structures and orthogonal notions in the language. It does not use ugly idea of separating module interfaces from module implementations. It does not use kludges like 'cyclic' to compensate for deficiencies of the underlying virtual machine. Yet it is more powerful in expressing algorithms. Things like closures or message polymorphism are natural and easy to express in Java, while either not possible or inconvenient in limbo. David From nemo@lsub.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:39:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 22019 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:39:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22015 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:39:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:39:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D661619C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B11CC19BD6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:39:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 35A2E19BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sargazos.escet.urjc.es (sargazos.escet.urjc.es [212.128.4.206]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7AFAF19BC5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:38:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4cac3ee48455c3c5f48149771bba4f03@plan9.escet.urjc.es> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Fco.J.Ballesteros In-Reply-To: <200403020730.i227U1tg071218@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-nigtcjtdtxabwzubqzivfpumec" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:37:59 +0100 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-nigtcjtdtxabwzubqzivfpumec Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you including all the plethora (eg. Thread) in the discussion? Have you considered how threads merge with synchronized? I don't agree that it's simpler. Thus, probably we won't agree in the result of comparing both of them. But it's nice to have several languages so that we could choose. BTW, for closures and polymorphism you'd use module pointers in Limbo; I forgot to reply to this earlier. --upas-nigtcjtdtxabwzubqzivfpumec Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by aquamar; Tue Mar 2 08:33:31 MET 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4326D19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24AE819C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7758019C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C62A619C40 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i227U2ki071219 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:02 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i227U1tg071218 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:01 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020730.i227U1tg071218@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <58c9a09539806ad0e5d6c0b07b3c7c89@plan9.escet.urjc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:30:01 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > But just to tell you what I mean, I feel that limbo lacks those > features that make Java a complex laguage, yet it retains > those that make it easy to reuse code. That's arguable, of course. But Java is a SIMPLER language than limbo. It has fewer basic structures and orthogonal notions in the language. It does not use ugly idea of separating module interfaces from module implementations. It does not use kludges like 'cyclic' to compensate for deficiencies of the underlying virtual machine. Yet it is more powerful in expressing algorithms. Things like closures or message polymorphism are natural and easy to express in Java, while either not possible or inconvenient in limbo. David --upas-nigtcjtdtxabwzubqzivfpumec-- From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:51:33 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23021 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:51:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23017 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:51:32 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:51:32 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 589A019C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C60B19AAA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:51:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 779DB19BC5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C5ABC19AAA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i227mLki071342 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:48:21 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i227mLxn071341 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:48:21 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020748.i227mLxn071341@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <4cac3ee48455c3c5f48149771bba4f03@plan9.escet.urjc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:48:21 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Are you including all the plethora (eg. Thread) in the > discussion? Have you considered how threads merge with > synchronized? Class Thread is not a part of the language. 'synchronized' is. What's wrong with Java synchronization? Can you please bring an example in Java and limbo where Java's synchronization is bad while limbo's approach is right? > BTW, for closures and polymorphism you'd use module pointers > in Limbo; I forgot to reply to this earlier. How exactly are closures expressed with module pointers? Can a module be created dynamically? David Tolpin From lucio@proxima.alt.za Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:52:23 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23073 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:52:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23069 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:52:23 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:52:23 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 7A7FD19BFE; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2D88919A89; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:52:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 457A719C52; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparkle.iba.co.za (sparkle.iba.co.za [196.30.44.140]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDDF619BF2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (prawn.iba.co.za [192.168.30.22]) by sparkle.iba.co.za (8.11.7/8.11.5) with ESMTP id i227krW19748 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:46:55 +0200 (SAST) Message-ID: <7d0c2d03cf49fc0835ab54c2f203c90b@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo Organization: Proxima Research & Development From: lucio@proxima.alt.za In-Reply-To: <200403020658.i226w3An070941@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030221) (sparkle) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:50:05 +0200 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >> The Inferno/Java paper (somewhere on the web site, but likely also in >> the Plan 9 distribution) covers it rather nicely. > > Google brings inexistent link. > Hm, maybe forsyth can help you with a copy, I'd have to search for one myself. If you want to wait, I must have one on the old Inferno CD. > The only claim I have found is that reference counting + coloring > is better than mark'n'sweep. Given that Java's GC is not mark'n'sweep > for a long time already, and the performance problems related to > memory management are insignificant since the release of HotSpot, > are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? > No, at that level of detail I'm really neither competent nor really likely to be persuaded that computer languages can be meaningfully compared. When you start going that deep into the architecture, you may as well resort to assembler. At least, I would, largely because I enjoy assmebler programming unless the host architecture is positively foul. > Besides, are there measured comparisons of Java and Limbo in the > area of memory usage and GC performance? My experience with implementing > GC in virtual machines is that reference-counting+graph coloring can > easily result in slower execution than mark'n'sweep. > Again, too detailed to be interesting, in my opinion. Programming languages are notations to express algorithms: the efficiency must lie in the algorithms, not the translators (also, in my opinion). ++L From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 16:59:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23618 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 16:59:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23614 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 16:59:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 16:59:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 83A7D19C8B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D5A2419BC5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:59:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 014BB19BC5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 492D419AAA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 02:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i227uEki071389 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:56:14 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i227uE08071388 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:56:14 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020756.i227uE08071388@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <7d0c2d03cf49fc0835ab54c2f203c90b@proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:56:14 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > The only claim I have found is that reference counting + coloring > > is better than mark'n'sweep. Given that Java's GC is not mark'n'sweep > > for a long time already, and the performance problems related to > > memory management are insignificant since the release of HotSpot, > > are there any other advantages of limbo over Java? > > > No, at that level of detail I'm really neither competent nor really > likely to be persuaded that computer languages can be meaningfully > compared. When you start going that deep into the architecture, you > may as well resort to assembler. At least, I would, largely because I > enjoy assmebler programming unless the host architecture is positively > foul. Unfortunately. limbo the language contains a fix for the reference-counting garbage collector. It uses keyword cyclic because garbage collector needs it. > > Besides, are there measured comparisons of Java and Limbo in the > > area of memory usage and GC performance? My experience with implementing > > GC in virtual machines is that reference-counting+graph coloring can > > easily result in slower execution than mark'n'sweep. > > > Again, too detailed to be interesting, in my opinion. Programming > languages are notations to express algorithms: the efficiency must lie > in the algorithms, not the translators (also, in my opinion). But the efficiency issue of GC technique was the only advantage of limbo over Java mentioned in the article. If it cannot be used, then what are other advantages? Are there code examples in limbo and Java which can convince someone that limbo is more convenient? David From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:03:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 23922 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:03:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23918 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:03:28 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:03:28 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 173CF19BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7A4CA19AD7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:03:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9276C19BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7969819AAA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:02:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:02:46 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 tests=DRASTIC_REDUCED autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * On the topic of garbage collectors, one of the main reasons for reference counting objects and immediately releasing them when they become unreachable was to use garbage collection to allow control not only of memory but also resources memory represents. The typical example given is one of windows that go away as soon as the last reference to them (actually the object representing them) goes away. Also, the reference counting had a distinct advantage of being fixed time. We had a terrible time with java systems of the time going away for long periods, both because of the garbage collector going off and because of the odd interactions in finalize routines in various classes. Over the years since limbo appeared, java garbage collection has changed radicly and often, drasticly reducing the 'time to take a coffee break' garbage collection runs. By the 1.4.1 jdk, java included 6 or more gabage collection strategies and all sorts of tuning parameters. Along the way all sorts of user code was written to avoid tickling the collectors at the wrong time or to get things done before they went off. That's a hell of a lot of effort to avoid the small differences advertised by the proponents of m&s and generational gc over reference counting. Of course, limbo isn't immune from odd timings. However, they do require reference loops and those seem not very common amongst limbo programmers. From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:11:23 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 24663 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:11:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24659 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:11:23 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:11:23 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 12E6D19B10; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D767A19BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:11:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3A0D319AFB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CE77D19B10 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:10:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2bd2a38e5c4e46d0eb327141cdd2bb97@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403020756.i227uE08071388@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:12:56 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >>Unfortunately. limbo the language contains a fix for the reference-counting >>garbage collector. It uses keyword cyclic because garbage collector >>needs it. no, absolutely not. it has no effect at run-time and does not appear in the dis files or anywhere else at run-time. all it does is suppress a diagnostic at compile-time, so that a programmer who is anxious to avoid creating cyclic data (if only by accident) can have that checked at compile time, and it provides a similar cue for a reader. on the other hand, the presence of cyclic does not mean it will necessarily be cyclic, just that the compiler cannot determine it will not. From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:21 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:16:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25148 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:16:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25144 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:16:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:16:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C41CE19BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3468B19AFB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:16:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 26C0119B93; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2871D19AFB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i228Ciki071470 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:12:44 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i228CiXH071469 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:12:44 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020812.i228CiXH071469@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <2bd2a38e5c4e46d0eb327141cdd2bb97@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:12:44 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > >>garbage collector. It uses keyword cyclic because garbage collector > >>needs it. > > no, absolutely not. it has no effect at run-time and does not appear in the > dis files or anywhere else at run-time. all it does is suppress a diagnostic > at compile-time, so that a programmer who is anxious to avoid creating > cyclic data (if only by accident) can have that checked at compile time, and > it provides a similar cue for a reader. on the other hand, the presence > of cyclic does not mean it will necessarily be cyclic, just that the compiler > cannot determine it will not. Is there any other reason for a programmer to be anxious to avoid creating cyclic data than reference-counting garbage collection? From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:22 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:24:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 25962 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:24:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25958 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:24:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:24:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 833CF19CA6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4BDF419BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:24:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5250019BF2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 87FDD19B10 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i228Kdki071532 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:20:39 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i228Kd1D071531 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:20:39 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020820.i228Kd1D071531@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:20:39 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 tests=DRASTIC_REDUCED autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * > From 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Tue Mar 2 12:02:21 2004 > Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo > From: David Presotto > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:02:46 -0500 > > On the topic of garbage collectors, one of the main reasons for reference > counting objects and immediately releasing them when they become unreachable > was to use garbage collection to allow control not only of memory but also > resources memory represents. The typical example given is one of windows > that go away as soon as the last reference to them (actually the object representing > them) goes away. Does that mean that designers of Inferno windowing system were required to avoid using cyclic references in window structures? That is, a window does not know who its creator is? It's a decision. But a limiting one. Influenced by an implementation. Just running garbage collector with limited scope would do it without limitations. > Also, the reference counting had a distinct advantage of > being fixed time. We had a terrible time with java systems of the time > going away for long periods, both because of the garbage collector going > off and because of the odd interactions in finalize routines in various > classes. It was not a tradeoff of normal garbage collection. Fixed-time garbage collection techniques existed long before java. It was just an early implementation to make it running. > Over the years since limbo appeared, java garbage collection has changed > radicly and often, drasticly reducing the 'time to take a coffee break' > garbage collection runs. By the 1.4.1 jdk, java included 6 or more > gabage collection strategies and all sorts of tuning parameters. Along > the way all sorts of user code was written to avoid tickling the collectors > at the wrong time or to get things done before they went off. That's > a hell of a lot of effort to avoid the small differences advertised by > the proponents of m&s and generational gc over reference counting. Among 61864 lines of tight Java code I have been involved in writing during last two years there is not a single line which was written to avoid tickling the collector at the wrong time. It just works. > Of course, limbo isn't immune from odd timings. However, they do require > reference loops and those seem not very common amongst limbo programmers. > Is there any other reason reference loops are not very common amongs limbo programmers besides limitations of the garbage collector? David From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:22 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:40:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 27857 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:40:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27853 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:40:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:40:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id AD58E19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 95BF519C37; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:40:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0D7EC19BF5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6277C19C26 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i228bAki071611 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:37:10 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i228bAv4071610 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:37:10 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020837.i228bAv4071610@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <918d202b192f1bcb8dd969285010a329@proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:37:10 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > Are there code examples in limbo and Java which can convince someone > > that limbo is more convenient? > > > ... you're edging closer to a religious topic. There are > philosophical differences between Limbo and Java that can only be > considered, not explained. Like there are between Pascal and C. Can > you convincingly state that C is _better_ than Pascal without > resorting to some untestable philosophical principle? I know I > cannot, in either direction. C and Pascal where created for different programming applications. Pascal had never been thought of as a language for systems programming. I'd consider philosophically comparing C and Oberon, but it's another issue. Going back to limbo, I see one advantage that would overweigh all the drawbacks. If limbo could be integrated into an OS other than Inferno (e.g. Plan 9) better than perl is (that is, if one can and does rewrite acme in limbo for Plan 9, for example), then it is a difference big enough to win. Right now, Java and limbo are in the same position of external tools artificially brought in. > Where I think Limbo has the edge, is that it is not the product of a > marketing organisation that has discovered yet another marketable > product, but that it grew from a desire to get things done to a clear > philosophical direction. What is the philosophical direction? From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:22 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:44:25 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 28266 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:44:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28262 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:44:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:44:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 75C6E19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 29E1D19C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:44:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D8E7A19BC5; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7605819B39 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:43:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <412645f8ec82b5c83ff0eee114c5cadf@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403020812.i228CiXH071469@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:45:42 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: one of the reasons that Limbo runs in much smaller spaces than any Java i've ever seen is that most storage is reclaimed by the reference counter, because many common structures are not, in fact, cyclic. DAGs by definition are not cyclic. when programming (even on large machines) it is good discipline (as Wirth observed) not to create the garbage in the first place. that also means that the incremental garbage collector can be less obtrusive. >>is there any other reason reference loops are not very common amongs >>limbo programmers besides limitations of the garbage collector? oh for heaven's sake. i must not be explaining this very well. there is no [inherent] `limitation of the garbage collector'. it garbage collects arbitrary rubbish just fine. the reference counted side does, however, reclaim storage the very instant the data becomes rubbish, which must certainly yield a smaller working set than any garbage collector scheme that has one always trundling along later. From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:22 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:55:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 29116 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:55:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29112 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:55:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:55:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BE5BA19CAB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D6AE219C7B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:55:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 149E419C33; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C0D9419BED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i228plki071684 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:51:48 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i228plJa071683 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:51:47 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020851.i228plJa071683@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <412645f8ec82b5c83ff0eee114c5cadf@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:51:47 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > any Java i've ever seen is that most storage is reclaimed by Are there any comparable programs that can show that limbo takes much less memory than Java? > the reference counter, because many common structures > are not, in fact, cyclic. DAGs by definition are not cyclic. > when programming (even on large machines) > it is good discipline (as Wirth observed) not to create the > garbage in the first place. that also means that the incremental > garbage collector can be less obtrusive. In Wirth's source codes of Oberon System there are many cyclic structures relying on mark'n'sweep garbage collector implemented in the system. And windows are closed timely. > >>is there any other reason reference loops are not very common amongs > >>limbo programmers besides limitations of the garbage collector? > > oh for heaven's sake. i must not be explaining this very well. > there is no [inherent] `limitation of the garbage collector'. > it garbage collects arbitrary rubbish just fine. How are resources (time, space and delay) compared for cyclic and acyclic structures? For example, a cyclic and acyclic list with the same data? > the reference counted > side does, however, reclaim storage the very instant the data becomes rubbish, > which must certainly yield a smaller working set than any garbage collector > scheme that has one always trundling along later. It is a wrong assumption that mark'n'sweep requires staged garbage collection. Why don't you just use propagating markers? It is marginally complex algorithmically, instantly throws away rubbish and does not make a difference between cyclic and acyclic data structures. David From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:22 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 17:56:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 29223 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 17:56:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29219 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 17:56:18 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 17:56:18 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 3DC8A19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E931319BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:56:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 8EFCC19BED; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 74FFE19C33 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:55:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <200403020820.i228Kd1D071531@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 03:55:46 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Does that mean that designers of Inferno windowing system were > required to avoid using cyclic references in window structures? > That is, a window does not know who its creator is? Yup, as long as something had a reference to the window, the window stayed around. If the reference is in cyclic struct that becomes unreachable, it will get collected. However the immediacy that users expect is lost. > It's a decision. But a limiting one. Influenced by an implementation. > Just running garbage collector with limited scope would do it > without limitations. All decisions are limiting. You pay extra for limited scope just as you do for reference counting. If you limit the scope small enough that you release things as quickly, then you have the equivalent of reference counting with higher cost. > It was not a tradeoff of normal garbage collection. Fixed-time garbage > collection techniques existed long before java. It was just an early > implementation to make it running. We lived with this 'just to make it running' for several years. The jdk's now contain multiple gc techniques including fixed time ones. From outside the VM the two are indistinguishable unless you care when the memory is freed, i.e., if when the freeing is visible. That happens both in java and in limbo if the finalize routines can have extrernally visible effects. > Is there any other reason reference loops are not very common amongs > limbo programmers besides limitations of the garbage collector? The garbage collector has little influence on our programming of cyclic structs, expecially since the gc correctly collects those cycles when they are freed. However, people seem to understand dags better then cyclic structures and make less mistakes manipulating them, so they use them more often. From rob@mightycheese.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:06:32 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30355 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:06:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30351 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:06:31 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:06:31 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 995C619CE2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4EA119CC9; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:06:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 80FF719CC9; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer01.geekmail.cc (dictum-ext.geekmail.cc [204.239.179.245]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0F6A119C8B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:05:56 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Received: from [192.168.0.2] (adsl-69-110-1-185.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.110.1.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailer01.geekmail.cc (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2295q9g029962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:05:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <200403020600.i2260mYk070667@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200403020600.i2260mYk070667@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rob Pike Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:06:14 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > I don't know what is that 'cherie' that is poor, but please > how can I make my text windows in rio show indents in increments of 8 > for tabs, and not of 4? > > Please use English. > how about using shell? tabstop=8 rio -rob From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:07:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30402 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:07:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30398 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:07:19 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:07:19 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 54BB219CB6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1CCF719CAA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:07:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A028E19CB6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9DE8019B01 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:06:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <197c245cd830d9ea21caa61e67d26169@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <200403020851.i228plJa071683@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:06:55 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > It is a wrong assumption that mark'n'sweep requires staged garbage > collection. Why don't you just use propagating markers? It is marginally > complex algorithmically, instantly throws away rubbish and does not > make a difference between cyclic and acyclic data structures. I don't know about this. Could you provide a reference? From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:10:28 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 30718 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:10:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30714 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:10:27 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:10:27 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 399AC19CE6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8760C19CB6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:10:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 79D9E19CB2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7D0B119CB2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2297Hki071782 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:07:17 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i2297HpN071781 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:07:17 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020907.i2297HpN071781@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:07:17 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > Right now, Java and limbo are in the same position of external > > tools artificially brought in. > > > I'm not the only one to believe that this is intentional, touted as an > advantage in both instances. Or do you use the GNU Java compiler for > your development (don't shoot me, I know precious little about it)? No, I don't think it is an advantage, as it is a feature of many other languages as well. GNU Java compiler does not make any difference. I don't mean compiling limbo into object code. I mean making *VM a part of the system. I want it to be loaded once and retain state. I want it to be a service, not an application. > > if you're still curious. Yes, thank you, I am reading it. From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:18:27 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31363 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:18:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31355 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:18:26 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:18:26 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id AA18119CF1; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 152F619C81; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:18:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 0E0AC19CAA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7BA3B19C7C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229Euki071806 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:14:56 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229EuBt071805 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:14:56 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020914.i229EuBt071805@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo In-Reply-To: <197c245cd830d9ea21caa61e67d26169@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:14:56 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > It is a wrong assumption that mark'n'sweep requires staged garbage > > collection. Why don't you just use propagating markers? It is marginally > > complex algorithmically, instantly throws away rubbish and does not > > make a difference between cyclic and acyclic data structures. > > I don't know about this. Could you provide a reference? > I'll try to find; I used to implement it according to a paper from a conference but I don't have the exact link. The idea is that you maintain and update marks (as in mark'n'sweep) instantly. Adding or deleting a reference induces modifications in a subgraph of the marked graph. Nodes which were marked and become unmarked can be deleted and it is almost equivalent in response time to reference counting. Graph updates must be synchronized on reference modifications, and nowhere else. Or is it what the paper on limbo calls 'graph coloring'? From rob@mightycheese.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:21:26 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31618 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:21:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31614 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:21:25 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:21:25 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BF78D19CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B864B19C4A; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:21:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 778BA19CE6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer01.geekmail.cc (dictum-ext.geekmail.cc [204.239.179.245]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EE4AD19CDA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:20:20 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Received: from [192.168.0.2] (adsl-69-110-1-185.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.110.1.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailer01.geekmail.cc (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i229KG9g030249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:20:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <200403020820.i228Kd1D071531@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200403020820.i228Kd1D071531@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rob Pike Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:20:38 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Is there any other reason reference loops are not very common amongs > limbo programmers besides limitations of the garbage collector? what limitations? seriously, you should read again what presotto wrote. using reference counting coupled with a cyclic collector means that most of the time you have complete control over the timing of your loops. also, the memory footprint of your program can be exactly what it needs; no requirement to have a large arena to make the collection efficient. these issues are critical for the sort of embedded applications limbo was created for. it just happened that they're also useful for general programming. the real story though is this: for the last few days, every time a criticism is raised about some piece of software, the arguments are always of the form "but zzz can do it" for some value of zzz, yet what's really being compared is some modern or idealized version of zzz vs. an earlier, functional piece of plan 9 or inferno code. yes, java *can* do good GC. yes, linux threads *can* create local storage. and so on and so on. but the point is: they could *not* do them when the programs (inferno, limbo, plan 9 threads, etc. etc.) you are criticizing were written. we're writing about historical systems here and people are carping that they are no better than what you can get today. well, perhaps, but so what? oh, to hell with it, i'll rephrase. linux is perfect. java is perfect. there is no better way to think than to accept what hordes of students believe is the one true way. no correct thought was every achieved by anyone over 18. i will never again write a thought that could possibly deviate from the official plans to be recorded in some upcoming software release from some open source organization. sorry for wasting your time. -rob From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:22:19 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31705 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:22:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31700 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:22:18 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:22:18 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D242819D1D; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C992C19CDA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:22:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5A10219CF7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFFFC19CDA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229JRki071839 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:19:27 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229JRPt071838 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:19:27 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020919.i229JRPt071838@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:19:27 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > > > > I don't know what is that 'cherie' that is poor, but please > > how can I make my text windows in rio show indents in increments of 8 > > for tabs, and not of 4? > > > > Please use English. > > > > how about using shell? > tabstop=8 rio Yes, I used grep to find that I must restart rio, not just open a window, for the setting to take effect. It is obvious when you know how it is working, but neither the page on 'window' says anything about it, nor man rio mentions tabstop. Besides, I also wondered in a followup, why acme repeats the code in rio to figure out the value for tabstop? Is it intended to run outside of rio? The code seems to be just copied from rio.c. The confusion has come from the fact that by default sam uses 8 spaces per tab, rio uses 4 spaces for tab. And nowhere in the documentation (besides the sources) could I easily find how to affect it. From rm@hamnavoe.com Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:24:23 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31859 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:24:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31855 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:24:22 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:24:22 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id D920419CE6; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1D35E19CB2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:24:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id B954119CDA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamnavoe.gotadsl.co.uk (hamnavoe.gotadsl.co.uk [213.208.117.150]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5F1C219C4A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:23:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] iTuner From: Richard Miller In-Reply-To: <2ffc0f359bf00f823758b54b22cd170a@borf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:23:03 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > Speaking of sticking something on a CF, what are you > guys using to do this? ... > Is it just a matter of writing SCSI commands into the ep1data and > reading the responses from ep2data? Not quite - there's an extra layer of protocol above the scsi commands. Actually two alternative layers: bulk-only or command-bulk-interrupt. I've written a driver which supports (so far) only the first -- I'll take the liberty of emailing you a copy to try. -- Richard From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:25:17 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 31924 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:25:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31920 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:25:17 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:25:17 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2232319CF7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A9CA219CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:25:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 919DC19D1D; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 29C5A19CB2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:24:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8836052d86f844f4c345aa4157f86c1a@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: advantages of limbo From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403020914.i229EuBt071805@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:26:29 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >>Or is it what the paper on limbo calls 'graph coloring'? the basis of the garbage collector is described in a paper by huelsbergen and winterbottom that you should be able to find via google/citeseer given those names and "real-time garbage". the actual implementation differs in various ways but that gives some of the background. From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:27:22 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 32126 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:27:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32122 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:27:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:27:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 4B1AF19CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 07A4D19CDA; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:27:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C194B19CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CA53119CB2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:26:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9892bbf9e20d9932558e62cdaba32abf@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <200403020919.i229JRPt071838@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:26:45 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: several people do indeed run acme instead of rio. Rio just offers an interface within each window that looks like what you get from the OS itself, i.e., rio's windows are to a certain extent screen/mouse/keyboard VM's. If you start up acme first, you can live witout rio. For that matter, you could start up sam instead of rio and do everything from there. Just type a ! in the command window for running commands. Might seem a bit limiting though. From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:30:54 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 32461 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:30:54 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32457 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:30:54 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:30:54 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id E0BB019CF1; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4FC3819CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:30:38 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 794CE19CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1A05019CE3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:29:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01706fdc23bcb6298928d8e807109f5b@terzarima.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <9892bbf9e20d9932558e62cdaba32abf@plan9.bell-labs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:31:38 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: >>The confusion has come from the fact that by default sam uses 8 spaces >>per tab, rio uses 4 spaces for tab. And nowhere in the documentation (besides >>the sources) could I easily find how to affect it. For historical reasons, sam uses a tab stop setting of 8 spaces, while the other editors and window systems use 4 spaces. These defaults can be overridden by setting the value of the environment variable $tabstop to the desired number of spaces per tab. from intro(1) which are the first manual pages you see when you open the book! From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:23 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:33:21 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 364 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:33:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 359 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:33:21 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:33:21 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id F192219CDC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CA17E19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:12 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 554C219A90; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 481F819A64 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229USki071923 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:30:28 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229USqA071922 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:30:28 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020930.i229USqA071922@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <9892bbf9e20d9932558e62cdaba32abf@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:30:28 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > several people do indeed run acme instead of rio. Rio just offers an interface within > each window that looks like what you get from the OS itself, i.e., rio's windows are > to a certain extent screen/mouse/keyboard VM's. If you start up acme first, you > can live witout rio. Thank you, I did not realize that. So I can launch a Plan 9 based 'kiosk' with Acme as its only interface? Great. That's what I need. From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:24 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:34:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 480 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:34:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 476 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:34:20 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:34:20 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 5C19519CD2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E40219AC0; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9179D19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D96D119AA2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229VUki071930 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229VUgi071929 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020931.i229VUgi071929@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <01706fdc23bcb6298928d8e807109f5b@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > from intro(1) which are the first manual pages you see when you open the book! Thank you. I don't have the book, just read recommended articles and man whatever when I have a question. From forsyth@terzarima.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:24 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:41:31 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1225 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:41:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1221 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:41:30 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:41:30 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id BF40D19CF1; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A6D7119BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:41:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C39AA19CAB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2314B19AC0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:40:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403020931.i229VUgi071929@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:43:03 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well, to be fair then, one might consider grep'ing /sys/man/?/* before complaining that something is undocumented. not that there aren't indeed things, even important things, that are not documented. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Tue Mar 2 09:34:11 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id ACE2A19CF7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9293C19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9179D19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D96D119AA2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229VUki071930 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229VUgi071929 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020931.i229VUgi071929@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <01706fdc23bcb6298928d8e807109f5b@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > from intro(1) which are the first manual pages you see when you open the book! Thank you. I don't have the book, just read recommended articles and man whatever when I have a question. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr-- From presotto@closedmind.org Tue Mar 2 20:26:24 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:45:30 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1593 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:45:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1589 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:45:29 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:45:29 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id DBE3D19D2B; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1E8AE19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:45:10 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 2FF0D19CE3; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE47C19AC0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:44:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0378eb3466a9c90fc322d1f94ce360f8@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: David Presotto To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-kxdhyswhmobdqavonhfaypbqxq" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:44:29 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-kxdhyswhmobdqavonhfaypbqxq Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lookman helps too. It is apropos BSD's apropos. --upas-kxdhyswhmobdqavonhfaypbqxq Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Mar 2 04:41:24 EST 2004 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Tue Mar 2 04:41:21 EST 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id A3EE219D1D; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 235E319CD2; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:41:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id C39AA19CAB; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from lavoro.terzarima.net (spc1-york1-5-0-cust44.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.44]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2314B19AC0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:40:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: Charles Forsyth In-Reply-To: <200403020931.i229VUgi071929@adat.davidashen.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:43:03 0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well, to be fair then, one might consider grep'ing /sys/man/?/* before complaining that something is undocumented. not that there aren't indeed things, even important things, that are not documented. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by lavoro; Tue Mar 2 09:34:11 GMT 2004 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id ACE2A19CF7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9293C19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:34:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 9179D19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (unknown [217.113.20.242]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D96D119AA2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i229VUki071930 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id i229VUgi071929 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200403020931.i229VUgi071929@adat.davidashen.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? In-Reply-To: <01706fdc23bcb6298928d8e807109f5b@terzarima.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:30 +0400 (AMT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: > from intro(1) which are the first manual pages you see when you open the book! Thank you. I don't have the book, just read recommended articles and man whatever when I have a question. --upas-ihwssbfnewdseqbojaozyrpvbr-- --upas-kxdhyswhmobdqavonhfaypbqxq-- From geoff@collyer.net Tue Mar 2 20:26:24 2004 Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Mar 2 18:46:20 JST 2004 Received: (qmail 1676 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Mar 2004 18:46:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1672 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2004 18:46:20 +0900 Received: from niscan1.aichi-u.ac.jp (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (202.16.124.100) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Mar 2004 18:46:20 +0900 Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id 35E3319D65; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3790C19BEC; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:46:11 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server, from userid 60001) id EEA8C19CF7; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from collyer.net (collyer.net [63.192.14.226]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B9B9F19D4E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 04:45:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <90832c7637a49eda25f426d06218bc7f@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] indenting source? From: Geoff Collyer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:45:37 -0800 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu X-Spam-Status: No, h